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" In 1955 the Swiss born photographer Robert Frank set out to document like in the United States. During a road trip across the country. The result of his photographic journey were published here in 1959 and a book called the Americans about. Which Jack Kerouac -- the humor the sadness the everything is an American this of these pictures. To celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of this groundbreaking work the metropolitan misery of artists exhibiting the original photos. Plus summer earlier work under the title looking in Robert franks of the Americans it's on view now through January 3. And I'm honored that it has brought Robert -- to Russia today along with -- curator in the -- department of photographs welcome to show. And Jeff let's begin with the the exhibition also includes photographs from trips you've Peru in Europe. Under these pictures and to our appreciation of what we see in the americans' -- Wealthy Americans didn't. Begin Robert Frank's work in photography and the curators decided. From good reasons to. I start at the beginning so we have pictures from physically from 47 to 53. That show how Robert -- what his subject was and how we developed a style. And they're organized thematically did you Robert always organize your photographs the medically did you think ultimately win. You were looking. -- her negatives."

" Well. It it comes naturally I mean you do you do a trip and you'd double negative you may feel print. And then. Whatever happens to them -- come up in an occupational. And then you think this picture -- go with this picture. Well love -- that somehow like an ankle again because the time path. And a trip is long gone. Now with the it was disease photographs intended to be published as a book or did you want to exhibit them. -- the American trip I want to Drupal I mean -- flinched. Kick -- that I got a Guggenheim fellowship because that would make a book. So that the only time that much. The reason. Who. Put it to -- isn't going to them -- couldn't compete."

" Because viewing the photographs shelf and in in a museum exhibition change him to think. Well it certainly allows people to experience the man that many different ways and then and publication I think most visitors to maps show. -- will see. The trajectory of roberts' career. It to pop and through the Americans and what's great is that you get to experience them in the sequence that Robert established and also the way you would in a book. To revisit things and to go backwards well in a book you have to pictures shown side by side you can museum. And you are you're going on no longer laying down a wall so you see there's two pictures and you see the next picture and you can always go back. A couple of pictures is that there is something. And different about that experience isn't there. Did you move was any kind of revelation feel have you ever seen them on this -- before Robert."

" Mueller Sheen of -- and it could fame exhibition that down a little different because of complaint. And if you -- complete distribution through a vehicle so. The loan. It certainly is different and then looking at temple. Nutrition. The book is. It for me it's more important than it can be and because it throw -- At this time."

" In in new your books -- book and black white and things. Both of which were made before the Americans do you have a quotation from the sun takes a pretty. It is only with a heart that one can see rightly what is essential is invisible to the what are you trying to tell us about how she could go about photographing with."

" That quote. Loaned to me contained. And in truth I was old. After I mean that could have -- in complete true and to be. Revealed. Something that he had do. Think about it except. And life. In photos that have people who will look at it Clijsters similar -- reading poetry -- repeating. Show up sometimes to succeed. In England."

" Fuel for. Hillary. Although these photographs seem to succeed for me."

" Life was one of the most popular magazine to the time. Obama will use it will you thinking about the kinds of pictures that we're being published in life when you were doing this."

" But it does very different than probably. Like that mattered if you wondered one picture that would be very strong and who could could publish it and it was very different and then he knew that cause -- you Korea you. Become more successful than you I'm not satisfied just want to pictures you'll. You want it and -- clearly. And that's that I think what the most you couldn't. Achieve really and -- public."

" Well life or did publish these photo essays but. Jeff. They -- they were trying to tells a different thing -- thing. Well there are trying to reveal. The meaning of the picture of Mary in a very straightforward way and I think what. Roberts achievement with a camera was. Was opposed and one which is that the story is larger. And now and it's more complicated and that there is. Can't truce in the way the picture is made it's not just subject it's emotion it's making pictures from the heart. And it's a revealing. The conditions. In which the artist was working not just the -- conditions of the street."

" They're also contradictions. And there the and that's part of what makes them so exciting not everything is just. It's telling us one kind of thing. I'm among my guests are Robert Frank. Who's the subject of a new exhibit at the metropolitan Meachem caught looking and -- franks the Americans on view. Through January 3. Also -- this is Jefferson I'm curator in the met's department photographs and the person who has organized exhibit at the -- This is W in my -- wnyc.org. I'm blended Lopate he said that you. You've got. You applied for Guggenheim fellowship to photograph what became the Americans. What did you tell them. Did you say that he just wanted to go and capture. The essence of."

" Now peninsula conscious and wanted to for the everything in America and it could take trips to America and reveal. The beauty and -- we. How people live. I would say if you walk I haven't helped me to write in I shouldn't -- and that. But. Have a very serious about the project it meant Carolla comedian and who -- could not be government repeated that its actions to. -- complete book that the."

" did that these voters have some kind of kinship to walker sentence but. That they are not the same even though if I can imagine that to Qatar for standing side by side and photographing something. Well I think it will let Robert Brown did was he he he took a small camera on the road. Evans was most well known for his view camera photographs that required a tripod and I think Evans liked to be on one side of the street and looking at what was happening on the opposite side and and Robert can tell us otherwise but I think you like to be it elbows distance from his subjects he'd like to V. So close that we can feel it and what that means and that happens like Mike to look at it from afar than."

" I have a different opinion I thought. And then fluke that something they've made clear and the shop in both. That way and only he would he would put everything and everything had to be in focus in the -- He knew exactly. Like you wanted to get that. -- Trip that went on -- could have can be captured. And you -- play when they -- correct. What show. So you do know is wary about focusing and you just took the pictures that worked out best you have to be very quick so you you couldn't pre focus. And you think. Off he depictions not really shop and yet to be it truth quickened and could come around sort of you have to know somehow what was happening in the back of view that. Also."

" I assume were over exposing because it's better to overexposed and then. Find all the details in the waiting room then to under exposed and not have the details a true. Of the -- like that. Because because somebody. -- will we see some of your contact sheets and some of the the images are pretty dark. Yeah -- that they have a helicopter look at that compatriot through I didn't print them very carefully. That. Doing interest that you really can't get -- have been correct -- And you look what they've been negative. Where other people photographing I think you get very close and in and one of the pictures one I think that you the walls. Texas is your favorite. There's a couple sitting in the grass I think it was in San Francisco and the men is turning and looking at you like -- Are you doing."

" Well. He felt that some somebody -- in the back of him and you know back then -- In felt like this by you if it was a man and a woman. And have a have made decisive moment for me I mean. That the view you if there aren't enough you know photo but -- some of classic because -- a couple of I had time to look at them and I knew it would happen. But you never sent to Szymoniak Connecticut picture. No cut at fish aren't for a needle back -- turnaround and photographed. The other side to a few other side so that columns people. -- Well keep keep the land him looking at them. Is it different than when you were doing the series of pictures of minors and Wales because you could you lived with them yeah. It's a different. Kind of culture that goes there replica action. I knew demanded and from -- used code used to -- quoted him penetrated."

" And and there you just try to reveal -- life was like yeah yeah. And what we try to reveal about America it's time we talked about 90551956. The time that at least if you speak to start mrs. Boom time in America and also a time when McCarthyism. Is. The perhaps the the thing that most people are discussing politically it is the fear of communism the Cold War. Was on most people's minds. I remember in school we had to get under our seats and and protect ourselves against nuclear attack. Yeah I remember that. We were little older than -- but. Whom would you trying to capture that sense of."

" A Manila. I was really just third. The portrait of the people what. People have been no. You know the truth out. More like a film in no way that way and move I wouldn't stay in place. -- And he did each state have -- a different sense. That it did they have different personalities. My English should still work day you open up and you went out and you hunted down that there. People who you know -- you. You have to be really could -- and -- tour. What did you do you have a route planned out future -- places you knew you wanted to go. Yeah -- then stripped of Butte Montana under his trip to Detroit. -- got permission to quote Ford factory. That was really the only time I. The federal -- like we reported earlier if those guy next to me. Followed really bend my intuition Nero that Google who left and right nor shall. And confession. And BankAmerica. And about America."

" How much did you know of the pictures who don't know about the pictures when you shut them where you'll. Surprised when you. Look did you contact sheets and they're Missouri with the Chicago area pretty good idea of -- music put pictures could put --"

" Well if you -- preview will look how it would come. My guess is Robert Frank who is the subject of a new exhibit at the metropolitan museum cold looking in Robert franks the Americans. It will be up. Through January 3. Also with us is Jeff -- curator of the -- department of photographs. And we'll continue our conversation that we take a little break stay with us. We're back with Robert Frank whose photographs are now on exhibit and -- about the museum whose photographs from a certain period of his life anyway cool looking and Robert -- the Americans. Also with this is Jefferson time curator of the met's department of photographs and but we have a slide show of some of the photographs from the exhibition on our show page at wnyc.org. Is also. And exhibited some of the photographs that appeared before the Americans and some other ones portraits of people and such at the Robert -- gallery. That sure that your regular galleries and you know. I noted it's in New York -- haven't -- have you seen that should know having. Meanwhile we have just open. It's interesting to look at the original publication of the Americans which was a fairly modestly sized book and then. To look at the catalogue for this exhibit which is huge. Because there's a lot what text and also because the pictures of printed bigger it it's important to see these pictures large isn't it."

" I don't think so I don't I'm very happy that the law flies up tempo and ultimately it's affordable to more people -- it. It was printed it was first published in France one was in a published in this country I couldn't find a publisher. -- grove press publish it. Yeah they location today. And he publish it only because he got the sheets from -- friends until it looked expensive to print it. He didn't have to do all of the engravings see you know -- got to treat children and that's out there look forward payment. Because -- Was publishing with grove -- yeah."

" And Italy did that lead to your connection to some of the beats later because you. That you may fifth you know pull my DC you with a whole bunch of teeth in your cast. Yeah. Without that -- logical way and that certainly helped them into. That Kevin you've done. -- research for the exhibit and there is the full text on the walls and in this book. Why was their resistance to publishing this book in the United States justice. Did nobody recognized that this was great art."

" I think there was an honesty in the pictures and something quite different than journalism on department and in the images. And I think that Robert was working within range a structure at the time in the fifties when. Try to -- had to be particularly clear as a as Robert said and had to. Reveal their meaning. Innocent in a specific way and I think what's great about the Americans is that it's. It's not just individual pictures but the sequence and also the choice of subject and the methodology the style. Both -- we're that you -- necessary to some people see this as being critical of life in America -- I think many people thought it was critical and then negative way as opposed to just observational. And I think that the photographers actually where some of the harshest of critics but hadn't Walker Evans and Dorothea Lange. Any number of other photographers. Revealed some of the more awful aspects of class and race in the United States but this time but they certainly have and I think Robert I mean from reverend Canon. Revealed it himself but Evans wrote very positive commentary. And I'm one of the things he said was who was that the pictures had irony amendments which is something that Americans don't. Really appreciate and that was probably one strike against them. But also I think that the time the time was not right. And for that kind of honesty and but soon within decade. Things have changed. He did people also where they upset because you were not American born today SC this is a far and criticized."

" In America. I'm really -- it may -- film I can I don't think it and can -- trip through. They weren't used to and you liked that because it's a pet life magazine. Puts the folder. --"

" That's difficult but ten years later when people recognize that this was a great work of art. You majority moved on."

" move on -- you're making films and yeah but you said earlier that you kind of thought of this project promises. Making films so was. In your mind you always a filmmaker and two on some level. More. Comment the American. Push who have ordered -- film so it goes through it and -- been longer patent. That. Films. I. Leah. You know assumption -- you also did sell them photographs in the subway that you never published that you. Even though I've heard that their fabulous. And and that's fifty years ago aside I don't remember really food that connection is somebody. But come -- look at the pump and -- of stuff comes up that you think maybe. Will be good to to a large shadow but that had had to go back -- my compatriots."

" Because I have spoken of photographers who because they were doing retrospective have gone back. To the original contact -- and they said -- that that image that I thought was actually boring. Now strikes me is maybe the best thing I shot that day and the one that I that was really great that I got all that attention for that looks too obvious to me. Does that happen to you."

" No I don't feel that. And I don't look at the current patriots I think I made the right church then. Robert was very patient and he spent many many months maybe a year working through that 27000. Frames to the select. The thousand to print to select the 110 -- down front to get the 83 in the book. -- few photographers today have that luxury of time or a willing to give them. Give themselves that that freedom and I think one of the successes of the book is that time that Roberts and understanding what he had done and editing. Did you feel that you needed to defend the book when it was first published in criticized."

" No I'm. Felt gulf. Then I -- couldn't tune -- have ultra low then it is not commander of patent. I think and people who didn't none offender -- that. It has that. Intrusion into photographed and intent had. An understanding of."

" My neighbors and to a in light of what's followed the American these focus sometimes seems a bit innocent. But you you may have been the first one to touch on some of these themes that now seem. Just a normal part of American life. The some of it is the scenes have a racial inequity. The religious scenes. The way in -- this is the way. Many Americans were living but word but nobody seemed to be noticing. Except. I guess until the Americans was published."

" When I think it's in two issue of Chicago for the economy is doing. If he has. You know. If you can work freely and if not bothered by and newspaper magnate behind him and that's. -- captions. Really free to quote my inclusion. -- why have you resisted to. Exhibiting these photographs until now. Provoke -- then I'm -- I'm not aware of that congress who think it."

" has has have been another exhibit. That you know of and of this exhibit was that in Washington before it right it's it's been traveling we're in the third of three venues. I think. The question was why hasn't there before have been a show of the complete series in in your hometown before. I think Dallas. Pitch -- it that was in your decision."

" Yeah and control. I mean I. -- I hit called go to the national gallery at pocono I was tree I didn't think -- let it go. The pictures of our varying size. Why is that if it was being done for book why is some of these pictures much larger than others. -- conditions made him -- collected all over the country. Pureed. When all around to find the best print. People that don't make content remote code that different kinds of so many -- remain at the time. Yeah many of the best -- commitment at that -- and I bulletin --"

" One of the surprises I think for all of us was the quality of the presence that the beauty. We live in a time of digital photography and there is. So much we talk about. May be some of the images are not as sharp because the focus of the camera but there's a beauty and the description and the tone talent you do that color if you will of the black and why it is. Is extraordinary on this scale difference makes. Approach that we all have when we and to the exhibition galleries quite likely. And surprising."

" We should not give the impression that these -- a bunch of blurry photographs of these are not Larry photographs. It just an using something in the picture something really important isn't total focus its. That not everything from corner to corner it is in perfect focus."

" Some of these pictures too many great fit to print. And then many contaminated and pillows satisfied. If you wanna to Google and of them want to filthy. So today. Different digital photography. Weren't sure arrested during his trip. Nothing want to punish him for one home for what reason. Confucian. Suspicion of watched taking pictures. Different and it was in remote play for. You know. Programs that nothing -- to conclude and looking for somebody. Who patrol cop. And they should step us through and I do. They didn't know. Quote a -- a critical time complications. Strange name from them and then it was embarrassing how how. Wow. Forgotten him. Who lives of people. In India capacity of belief. With no. I think that change but and the affinity primitive. But it must have been an awful. Experience for you or did was that part of the whole experience you know doing this very day I spent a couple of nights in prison. Then I was young guns in our high fat. Now it will affect me a different -- that is Earth Day espionage that you're doing this all on your own you you can take your family. -- Because if you would it have been prosecuted early photographs to have. Are -- traveling with the fan. I Caroline putz finished their family and then I sent them back to call it caters to. Children the love of maybe two trials -- A listener called in wanted to know how you got -- excuse me. Access to the African American funeral that you photographed in South Carolina to judicial -- Actions -- A line of and an island could feel like it was who have can be cruel and treated undertakes. Died and -- It true. That kind that they. Today and emotional quotient. I think quite happy Chandler -- that they can put it. And you can feel. Did your experience making the Americans change your view of the country. It didn't change the way you thought about photographing. No I learned. -- trip -- learn how to photograph. Even though you had done so much work before you were still learning how to -- Obama -- trip that was the big trip show. Death of -- that that real Palo. No way I could handle that Cameron -- drive. And a photograph every day they can cook train. And then used to it made films that was pulled my daisy which is a classic predict and hope mantra films. Including document you've got the rolling zones. What drew you to then. Wasn't electric. Because quite different than well. Like he picked me income that can blow that hopefully I'll tell you president of Mexico Fordham and and -- only -- it can go through log on his book films influenced you. Don't have a big group review and updated with a friend of mine in any fuel. So -- example. Many of these two fearful. Over what they pleased that the fund problem. They -- what pleased to have that they react to the film. I showed it both of them under news piece Richard -- Goes Gordon. Hadn't said well. I didn't see cheaper shelf like death and no no actually you can't fly you do pay more attention to -- I cannot compete you -- flashier pieces yet."

" So I'm not surprised you also. Are showing short film that. That Robert -- About is focused on moving pictures is as part of this -- we're we're really pleased to be able to show virtually everything that Robert didn't with. In film and then video and I have contact -- tears well. Exactly and I think that visitors will be able to see the photographs and understand Roberts. Application of his ideas in the in motion pictures. And it's a rare opportunity certainly here and you are. 44 people deceived both aspects of his output. -- I am assuming based on my own experience looking at the exhibit. That different people experience it differently and that -- serious photographers are looking at every contact sheet. Because so people going over them and then the rest of us just want to experience this. Wonderful sequence of pictures each chapter. Did you think of that was -- starting off. -- is a shot that involves the American flag."

" Didn't think Communist captors that you know you have to organize your photos. That was a good way to organize them. What comes -- the American flag."

" And then you start with the American flag and some subject and then you know that's sets up a theme. And the juxtapositions are really important here and there are photographers who just showed pictures in the the order that they took them."

" Who are. -- and this issue of carefully. I selected him talk a little time. But -- them up on the -- and -- of federal move alone can -- a film here. And that's what we experienced them that the exhibit which I'm sure was something -- thought a lot of Jeff when you -- the show."

" Yeah most times we don't get to have a structure. Already there that we have to follow we have to make sense of it. But die in this case we were able to just follow Roberts on sequence -- the meaning is there. There's a slide show photographs from the Americans on our show page at wnyc.org. The exhibition looking in Robert -- Americans is on if you -- to -- in north through January 3 and there are a number. A public programs at the museum. And -- exhibition. Robert -- photographs at the rocket man gallery in Chelsea. And a documentary at film form for more information you can visit our show page and wnyc.org. Thank you both so much -- this thank you."

" And to our show Pulitzer prize winning author Taylor Branch discusses his new book the Clinton tapes. And yes it's the book that describes a late night drunken pizza run by Boris Yeltsin. And then we speak with two curators from the Guggenheim Museum about a new retrospective of the work of abstract art pioneer a city Kaminsky. Also former secretary of state Madeleine Albright on her career and -- Houston could pins to make diplomatic statements plus. We look at how are networks of friends can influence almost everything about their personality from our politics where health habits to our emotions. The Leonard -- show is produced quickly from sixty Valentino Jim -- Listen you can see executive producer and we have to be from -- catching and Stephanie Bernhardt. Can -- found him was at the audio control time let -- figure host thanks for listening we'll see you tomorrow."

" Thanks for listening to WNYC on demand please check out the other programs at wnyc.org. Or on iTunes. This is a free service made available by our listeners. Become a member of WNYC. Today."