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" When we hear the words plastic surgery many of us think of procedures which might seem frivolous matters of personal vanity rather than necessity. But upon examination plastic surgery turns out to be a far more complex and wide ranging discipline. Joining me now to talk about the subject on today's addition of these explainer a doctor Robert grant. The chief of plastic and reconstructive surgery and New York Presbyterian Hospital Columbia. And doctor reason Armitage Ari assistant professor at the David Geffen school of medicine and UCLA. Division of plastic and reconstructive surgery welcome to our show."

" are delighted to be here thank you."

" Directed -- is it ironic that you're at the David Geffen school of medicine -- So many of the most prominent people -- who we are aware have gone undergone plastic surgery are in show business."

" I guess there's some degree of irony is certainly. Los Angeles I think is considered to be one of the Mac because. Cosmetic plastic surgery along with New York in Dallas. So we can a lot of attention. Regional center in that regard. I think that's sort of a media driven issue and and it's away from your actual health care issues."

" Now and we'll talk about both. Both the view are equally expert on this so if I address a question to one of view. If the other one has anything and you just jump in okay. -- doctor grant to begin at the beginning as we usually do on please -- can you define plastic surgery."

" Well you know plastic surgery. As they term has its origins in the Greek root perhaps the -- Which means to mold or to shape. It has nothing to do with plastic like plastic wrap or plastic or pulling one skins so tight that the patient looked like a plastic --"

" So you weren't there once advised to go into classics as that's -- happened was in the graduate."

" No I started I want it cardiac surgeon."

" And I changed my focus after I realize that. Specialties like cardiac surgery in -- country have operations where patients sometimes have."

" Bad outcomes that are unavoidable."

" And that in order to see people's lives on time. A few patients don't make it. So I switched to plastic surgery falling in love with a diverse nature of the both cosmetic and reconstructive problems that I could track. And I've come to love it because while I'm not a quantity of flight surgeon I'm equality of flight surgeon which means I use the trade with my patients that."

" The kind of work that I do doesn't -- years your life but it will certainly it like to -- years."

" When someone has a wound or disfigurement or physical disability of some kind hound is. One determine whether they should see regular search and or plastic surgery."

" You know that's a great question. And I think that fortunately most urban areas there's large number of specialists who. Practice plastic surgery whether there plastic surgeons or one or the other surgical specialties."

" No plastic surgery is not anatomically defined. Which means you -- seen orthopedic surgeon as an example you know he's going to be someone who's gonna work on the ball joint. Unity of plastic surgeons are all sorts of different kinds of plastic surgeon there those are just human cosmetic surgery those who deal answered -- hand. Those who deal in pediatric congenital problems so all for example. So. Basically the -- most patients find a plastic surgeons typically by word now. Or by asking their internist or one of their other trusted health care providers for -- to someone who has expertise and the problem that they want to learn more about."

" By the same techniques applied whether you're performing cosmetic surgery or. Reconstructive surgery."

" I think that the focus on. What we do mean that we use our background in training. And cross pollinate the cases that we deal with from reconstructive focus. Yes we're dealing in functional issues but we want the patient to look as good as they possibly can and I think that that particular. Type of background and experience. That's ingrained into the work we do really benefit the patients and their interactions with the board certified plastic surge."

" Doctors -- REI and -- that plastic surgery is actually an ancient discipline going back. Maybe thousands of years that -- have tried whenever possible to repair this treatment using whatever resources they have. How important has. War binge in all of this."

" Well unfortunately war has been. Over thousands of years -- driving. Force for innovation and advancement of plastic surgery. You know plastic surgeon I think are probably more. Interest it and surgical history than than many other surgical -- because there history is very rich. And the first and probably the first documented. Written text on on treatment of surgical treatment of facial injuries dates back to. 3002000. BC."

" And what would be doing at that time."

" I just preparing facial injuries you live action manic nature. And India in about 800 BC. There's a lot of work done by a particular surgeon who actually wrote. Experts on facial reconstruction. And describing some techniques that. Largely gone. Unchanged and we still used today in terms of facial reconstruction is the reconstruction particular. But it's the war time. Particularly the modern warfare era and specifically World War I World War II where we've. Seeing. We're seeing that. Severe. Had a neck and facial injuries. That required. Sort of a new breed of innovation. On the part of certain strategic interest in and reconstructive surgery and the like -- set I think these things go hand in glove. The the reconstructive surgeon about -- sort of had an aesthetic focus in mind you want you to put something together we've feels not. Simply inadequate he -- to put something together. Defects. Loan. And make it look aesthetically pleasing in other words in reconstructive surgery or first. Goal I think it's to restore functions but we also looked very keen focus on reform. The new form that we're creating and in wartime -- entry so we see. And continue to see today. Whistler and so it was coming back from the police. The functional defects as well cosmetic defects are severely disfigured so."

" And you are working with soldiers coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan are --"

" That's correct we have as a foundation called operation man and which creates they UCLA and we're working with. Some of the severely. Burned and disfigured patients who are coming back from Iraq Afghanistan. Along with the military surgeons to. Request. In the acute setting in the fields and then back here in the military bases. And it's it's it's very challenging work but our focus is to try and you know restore. Some normalcy not going to there functional capacity but also there appearance."

" Doctor Graham what are the main tools of a plastic surgeon -- that they differ from the tools that of the surgeons use."

" I wanted to I'd just add a couple words to what doctor Gary said I think your listeners might find interesting about the history of plastic surgery. Yes war has been an important driver of the advancing knowledge but also things like infectious disease. -- I mean well and it knows as an example of an area that's been reconstructed for centuries."

" Yet we've all heard the you know -- That's fighting -- by cutting off one's nose. A lot of that had to do with the way that people were conquered and for the vanquished to be stigma ties their noses would be cut off. So of course getting your nose reconstruct it was important way not to feel like K you were. A victim of having been conquered by in of the society. Syphilis of course also affected the nose and you can imagine walking around with a deformed knows. As an -- advertisement for having some sort of sexually communicable disease. As being a pretty typical thing to deal."

" So those are just some of the other interesting thing I found win."

" I began to look into the well plastic surgery why what does that these operations have been practiced for so very very --"

" You get the the us can do to make up a new notes for a."

" That's one of the -- operations in plastic surgery we can take advantage of some of the issues that lie in the forehead or from the cheek. Those -- the first operation nowadays with micro surgical technique. We can actually reconstruct three dimensional defects like that those using spare part surgery from other parts of the body. The inner part of the form this side of the sky where the body has a little bit of at."

" Access that we can borrow. Using micro surgery."

" To -- in an artery in -- so that the blood supply to the tissue that's being transplanted. And Venus return that's coming away from the transplanted tissue. Is of course enough to keep the issue alive. The latest advancement gotten a lot of attention of course or the partial and full fleet street."

" I expect we talked to a Doctor Who had performed the largest full face transplant and she. I talked about all the complications because it's not just a matter of getting skin in this case. From another person you can just take little patches from the body of the ways you wanna put this patch quilt. But -- she also said you have to take -- Because you have to in him and he's -- her big case was a woman who'd been shot in the face by her husband. And she had to pretty much create a whole new face."

" And the of that is interest thing. Four I think your listeners understand that the first transplantation of the -- organ a kidney was actually done by a plastic surgeon. So this is doctor Murray -- Murray in Boston he received the Nobel prize for this and our history and tradition as an academic specialty includes transplantation. So we've come full circle in many ways and that the recent advances in what are called composite tissue transplantation. Where."

" Multiple types of tissue as --"

" Own multiple murderers tendons are transplanted. Is part of what some kinds of plastic surgeons do."

" My guess a doctor would grant the chief of plastic and reconstructive surgery at New York Presbyterian Hospital Columbia. And if you raise a majority to -- Iraqi. Assistant professor at the David Geffen school of medicine UCLA division of plastic and reconstructive surgery this is WNYC wnyc.org. And look at the pay. And in a few moments we will be taking your calls at 2124339692. That's 212433. WNYC. Or you can leave a comment on our show page wnyc.org. Doctor journey. Derek has some terms that I need to have to explain. Autographed and -- photographed. What are the differences."

" And autographed. -- craft that -- before we. Took about craft lament is trying to explain different he would graft is whether flap that is okay. Flap is any block of tissue that's transferred. From one part of the body to another either locally or to a distance side on the body it's -- with a blood supply. And conduct ground just different country micro surgical transplantation Horry take a block of tissue whether it's soft tissue soft tissue and bone. And bring along with a key artery in pain to transfer to another part of the body in the arteries and -- have to be hooked up. Two recipient -- that's supposed to have raft where tissue is taken from one part of the body and transferred to another part of the body. And independent of any blood supply and expected to derive its book supplies from the recipient here."

" Now and other ever times when two issues from another species is used."

" Yeah that's called as we know grafting. And it's not news very commonly. Although in burn reconstruction where they have massive. Burns covering large body surface area. And need temporary coverage of phones there we do use. Typically. Scraps that are derived from -- Skinner pigskin has temporary coverages. So that's called being -- grafting an autograph is a grafted tissue that is taken from. The person's own body. And and -- graft is the craft. To shoot it's taken from. Some. Genetically. A member of the same species but a different person."

" And that requires of the same sort of thing we see with the organ transplants and that was something I talked about with the doctor. Who had done the full facial. Transplant. That. You have to take drugs the -- feel like to prevent through your body from rejecting your own face."

" That's correct sometimes the the medicine is harder than cure you have to take lifelong well we're sort of experimenting -- Immune suppression protocols that taper off. But currently the standard is that you commit patients who undergo. Telegraph transplantation to a lifelong. Worth of immune suppression therapy which certainly has significant and so that's potentially lethal side effects so it's not a trifling matter and -- play it's taken us years to. To come up with protocol to facial transplant surgery -- and patient screening is very important patients have to realize that. Along with this two reinvention of that are there facial features you'll have to commit to like there it."

" What are the most common. Reconstructive. Certain procedures done in the United States. To the set to both of you."

" I can jump in with that one interestingly enough speed on number of reconstructive procedures and the United States. Increased to about five million last year 2008. Most of those. Almost four million have to do with removal of skin and other kinds of surface cancerous tumor removal. And then of course plastic surgeons are busy preparing lacerations. Providing scars. And doing -- country. And I think the operation that roundup -- top five that most people would've thought about if they would thinking. About plastic surgery. Is -- breast operation called breast reduction of about 90000 women underwent an operation into account and an eight."

" That there are also people who have problems curing -- they have to have -- actually plastic surgery. So that their eyes can --"

" That's an operation that isn't done with a tremendous amount of frequencies and fortunately that problem is not altogether common. But typically these kinds of operations for reconstruction surgery --"

" More often than not dealing with I would -- formations or."

" Deformities that result from scoring where the tears don't train in the normal sort of way. And the -- I would in particular needs to be repositioned or reconstructed. In order to make it tears they -- in the high enough fallout on the cheek."

" Conducted -- what abound. Cosmetic surgeries in the past I would have thought that. Nose jobs would have been the most common now why -- might guess its facelift just based on what I see is sick is that accurate."

" Not exactly actually. Those little bit further down on the list the data for this is compiled on an annual basis. American society of this plastic surgeons and historically. -- over the last decade liposuction has been the most common. Surgical. Cosmetic procedure that's been performed and just last year. Breast augmentation sort of vested. Liposuction in that regard."

" When people are obese. And their skin gets really stretched and then they lose weight don't they also need to have that cut back."

" Yeah I think we're talking about two different things. The massive weight loss patient people or -- either lose weight on their own by diet and exercise. Or who undergoes some sort of surgical procedure to help them lose weight. They not only have an excess of but they have an excess of skin that's been stretched usually over him typically over. The course of several years. Five the extra body weight that they think carry around so. And those patients they need more than massive for more invasive surgery in just liposuction which. Typically is thought of as a body contour and procedure not a weight loss procedure which I think it's. Sort of a common misconception -- liposuction I personal think liposuction as the great. Surgical procedure for someone who's overweight. I think it's someone who it's good procedures so it was closer to their ideal body -- Who wants a better body contour but in the massive obese massive weight -- patient -- talking about. And those patients may have liposuction. Or may benefit from liposuction in conjunction with -- larger grander scale procedures where. We're doing. Abdominal class is removing the excessive skin prep me abdominal wall. Or excess can infect from the arms lifting the grass."

" And what is like the suction involved. And you're sucking out sent."

" They're basically sucking out fact you. He addressed the area of concern. And we used. Liposuction cameos which are basically long metallic bronze. And there simply put hooked up to vacuum -- small incisions. To access the area of concern and we -- cut the --"

" You know Leonard I just wanna do follow up on the point you guys were just talking about is it's an important one."

" You know there's there is a difference between purely cosmetic surgery reconstructive surgery but there are a lot of gray areas and patients who are happening."

" Massive weight loss -- plastic surgery. Are in a real great area."

" Because. It's expected they're going to have a lot of excess loose skin and tissue that results after the weight loss. But insurance companies in particular don't necessarily. Agree that removal of that is considered. Medically necessary. So that standard definitions we have reconstructive surgery being. On a part of the body that was damaged by disease or trauma or due to a congenital reason."

" Purses cosmetic surgery which is surgery done on normal part of the body to enhance its appearance and make that person feel better about themselves."

" Really doesn't help in that particular area. So that's always a challenge for us who are caring for those patients we want to. Finish the job the patients have lost the week they're feeling better their medical issues are addressed but. We have a heck of -- time convincing the insurance companies that removal of the excess skin from their tummies are chests or legs on is really something that. Just as important to completing. The patient's recovery as you know the other operations that or much more agreeable to be considered medically necessary."

" Is this something that has come up for discussion in. Planning for a new approach to to help the the the various laws that are being proposed in Washington."

" While there's no international minimally invasive way unfortunately to remove lots of access issue it's still means we have to make fairly large incisions. And it means the patient needs to be cared for in a hospital setting you know you're having five or six or low power longer operation. You know it's certainly not in the patient's interest to have that done in -- facility where they're going to be sent home you know sooner as opposed to later. So there's lots of debate in Washington about reforming our health care system. I don't think that this is. An -- tenor in terms of right now what people are talking about but certainly it's an issue that we -- plastic surgeons continue to advocate on behalf of more patience. Going fort."

" We have to take a go ahead and -- and military will break."

" Sure we've had a little bit better I'm training creative facial surgery and we've had a little bit better success. And addressing these types of issues in pediatric patients so. Do lot of -- without surgery would follow those kids from they're born until. Pretty much there when he won so and in their adolescent years a lot of these kids require. Corrective jaw surgery. It's preceded by what Saddam is there any braces. To realign their teeth and they need to move. We need to move their jaws into correct position about 25% of kids were born. I doubt we'll meet some -- surgery and in California we have -- the legislature to. To not allow insurance companies to denying. Payments. For. Those types of services because this is the continuation of the consent no problems that. That affects and growth until the victims are grown there you know definitely analysts. But but I agree that progress wholeheartedly -- the issue of who's. Proving these procedures and what's. Quote unquote medically necessary and political necessary causes a lot of frustration for patients and for the positions -- treat them."

" My guess a decorated her Girardi. Assistant professor at the David Geffen school of medicine UCLA division of plastic and reconstructive surgery he's talking to us from Los Angeles. And doctor Robert grant the chief of plastic and reconstructive surgery New York Presbyterian Hospital Columbia. When we come back we'll be taking your calls at 2124339692. Stainless."

" And we are back with doctors Robert grant and -- a dry -- and we -- talking about plastic surgery on please explain today are never -- 212433. 9692. Let's go to our first caller and that is Natalie from Staten Island -- your on the air."

" That's how I think you are taking my call -- of the questions for the doctors without. It does have to do with what is the fact just this past the dot com. That the acceptance for example it turned out to be a bit of -- reconstructive surgery. Something that certainly could give patients more mobility that -- before. Ultimately very close to the article -- report says -- And -- a child. He was very overweight because it's probably -- just as much as they advertise. Yemen. And as he became a teenager she's excited to shed seventy pounds. There with her to market them -- Scott these huge flat this election on her arms and it's always. It's always bothered her preference he sees. Pro Bono work being done you know if he TV shows -- doctors so we decided it's pro Bono work she always has -- What would hate for someone to look at her and think she was a candidate for it with a congenital problem in the first place that -- been corrected. And it would give her a lot more ability I mention that to find out what criteria surgeons and surgeons in general generally it's better when they're doing pro Bono work."

" And Natalie is not alone in asking about the cost of this work because it often tends to be quite expensive. For people who actually have a real need. Doctors."

" So I can start to doctor grant the issue is a lot more than just the surgeon volunteering to do the work without charting a professional city."

" There are so all of the other components of the health care. Team that need to be put in place as well. And that includes getting the hospital to agree to leave for reduce the fees for use in the operating room. Supplies the anesthesiologist. Internist who may need to look at the patient. And help manage some of their of the medical problems. And many of these commitments need to be open ended. Every surgery what we strive to do them as safely as possible. Has a risk of complications. So there's a concern about you know who's gonna pay for the complications if that happens who's going to be managing it. So the issues are a lot more clear cut and able to. Consensus built around someone who has been very clear reconstruction needs like a cleft lip cleft -- It's a lot more difficult to stay in a situation where someone has some excess. Skin that's troubling is that is -- this close friend of yours that this is. Resources that should be devoted to fix that problem. That aren't going to displace a person who has another."

" Problem that."

" More people might consider to be objectively reconstructed in nature. So it's a very challenging problems for patients who were living in that gray area so. I'm basically those of us who work -- academic medical centers have the best ability to try and help patients. See if we can access. Types of services where -- would be reduced or perhaps not even charged. But it would be irresponsible of me to say that."

" You know we are able to do pro Bono surgery on everybody who wishes they could have done."

" Even if you wish that the person. Could be helped -- A number of listeners have asked about overseas procedures have they compare in price and safety to the the kind of thing you'd get domestically."

" And in that state. A difficult subject -- you know as a as an earlier we both work here. Oh I think we both worked overseas to -- the issue -- medical tourism is that if you're thousands of miles away from the surgeon who performed your surgery."

" You know that's the problem and -- risk that associated with spending time mobilize an airplane for hours."

" you know we have a wonderful."

" Framework. Health -- the United States I made some comments before about how it needs to be fixed little wanted to be better. But there are checks and balances that exist in the United States to protect patients that don't necessarily exist in other countries in the world. Opposite that there aren't other countries in the world were surgeons aren't very well trained to do very good work but if you're an American and you travel overseas all of those problems again. Like if there's a complication who's gonna take care Vietnam. You know if you have to deal with. Associated pain or disability related issues it's a lot harder to manage that get detention of an office that's 3000 miles away one that's on the corner."

" And we see a fair amount of patience to return to Los Angeles from going down to. Mexico or South America in search of a some bargains so to speak. Who come back with horrific complications. And and and -- those that the allies and that's the extreme but even as doctor grants that basic things like following -- their position where there is. And less severe problems -- follow up on. And it's hard to get back on a plane and -- fairly safe to get back on the plane and traveled back Torre came so. In terms of the long term costs for patients who do unfortunately you know complications. And may not the they may end up putting more money out of pocket and they had originally intended by seeking these deals overseas."

" Catherine from Westchester you're on the air."

" I'm curious. You've seen these advertisements and promotions occasionally -- what they're calling nonsurgical. Facelift. And I'm wondering if you're familiar with what is the procedures that they're doing is supposedly nonsurgical. And what you think."

" Well I'll pop star turned -- has -- as well. I think -- touches on the sort of perception of plastic surgery in the media. And there are a lot of issues with advertisements we've seen on television. And it starts with definitions and the eggs exactly I don't have an answer to your question because nonsurgical. Means lots of different things to different people I think."

" Well Botox is non surgical answer right."

" And I mean have been the most generally accepted. And nonsurgical procedures that are that are tracked by our societies are Botox in the injection of Stiller is. Formally collagen based now primarily Ohio girl I -- base. And chemical peels or other types of laser skin resurfacing of this can resurfacing procedures. But but it seems like every other month affairs and he sort of -- technique like. Redolent of story. Or other you know lunchtime facelift and we can faceless but I feel advertisements or hear about them I have no idea what what's being sold nor do I know who's performing the procedure and in what setting. I don't know that the plastic surgeon I don't know if that's dermatologist I don't know if that's the gynecologist and what their training is. Sometimes it's not even a position -- pay restitution arousal will license from schools with static. I don't know the safety or certification of the institution which the procedures being formed. -- performed so. So I would just counsel you and and our listeners to. Be sure they know what they're -- in Q."

" We can answer a different kind of question I'd be since I talked to an awful lot of people. Quite as any number coming here who have obviously had some plastic surgery. And when it's obvious I was saying that they made a big mistake. Why it doesn't always remain obvious or does -- face eventually relax and doesn't look more natural and time. That's the first question the second question is if somebody comes in and is asking for something that you think. May not be the most attractive approach do you try to dissuade them."

" I'll I'll start with those -- The reality is that I think. We've learned over the course of the last 25 years and I've been involved doing it security is that less can be more."

" And that doing a little bit of a small procedure perhaps a bit earlier in the patient's life."

" And make them maintained her appearance longer. And having them wait until they're a bit older or postmenopausal. And having an operation that is -- technical success. But change is the patient's appearance so radically that they look like they've been quote unquote on --"

" So most plastic surgeons using all the."

" Tools available to us things that include the minimally invasive and non invasive procedures in combination with a surgical operation are getting away from that look where people look overdone or more flashing neon advertising that they had plastic surgery."

" We are looking for results where people are looking rested refreshed and relaxed not looking like there."

" But what happens is somebody comes in and -- we've seen some extreme cases. Joan Rivers for example as a regular guests on the show and she talks about. Knowing how that she looks unnatural but at the same time she likes the way she looks."

" One of the things that I would counsel patience is to try and separate. The thing that people who work in television any entertainment industry do to themselves in order to get rules or to get a certain appearance. From the person who has an otherwise normal American who's living a normal life. Beauty is a three dimensional concept and have a lot to do with how you carry yourself how you approach a situation you talk Peggy draft."

" When you look at someone and TV show or magazine or movie that's a two dimensional media everywhere knows the term you're photogenic."

" And many people want Hollywood -- New York since we do a lot of that you know that television and he works here. Have to look a particular way on the screen in order to get a role. So Joan Rivers is Joan Rivers and she works in the entertainment industry. But if Joan Rivers was a normal person I think most people would agree that she's had more work than most normal patients certainly any mental patient of mine would wanna be."

" The listener asks is there are way. To correct the bad facelift or bad or other kinds of bad cosmetic surgery."

" It's difficult. He can always offer vision procedures that just want to say that. I would add a fourth dimension to. Progress three dimensional now estimates the dimension of time and one reason that people. Can look unnatural it's because. That's seven year old woman should look the way sometimes you'll very -- and -- looked. And I agree wholeheartedly that I think and and moderate approach subtle approach it is it is. Usually results in the best -- actual hearing. Appearance were patient the hardest thing. To do from means to same note to a patient but I do -- all time. And that's and probably inordinate amount of time real truth patients with multiple sessions cleaning up to surgery. Trying to get to know them and to try and determine what is their goal from the procedure whether it's official procedure or body procedure. And what do they want to get out of and I really trying to match mine. Mine skills to what they've won and I think think that. I can provide them what they want or I think that what they want will not result in -- aesthetically pleasing outcome that'll tell them and there's plenty of surgeons in town. All happily for them one of my colleagues some -- Wendell white in refer patients away and the skills the technical skills to do things that. I think. Good surgeon and reusable patients have to have an understanding with one another and both have to be comfortable. -- what they're looking for the."

" New Jersey writes -- have there been any studies settling breast reduction surgery. But lowering the risk of breast cancer. "

" Actually that has been look at and there's no relationship between. Reducing one's -- and either increasing or decreasing your risk of breast cancer. The latest information is that breast cancer is a systemic disease from the outset it affects all the tissues of the --"

" And so whether you have a little bit of -- issue or a lot of breast tissue if you have breast tissue you have the same risk for development of breast cancer. "

" Another listener asked if you have liposuction are you removing the fat cells. -- so you can't gain fat in the same areas again. And if you gain weight again will you see it in other areas."

" That's adding that's probably one of the most common questions people ask about. Like this section you are removing the fat cells from the body but you're leaving behind. Defense cells you're not taking out so if you. Gain weight than those fat cells that remain in place will get larger will hyper -- and in Buchanan. Have a recurrence of your original comment or problem. Even -- it had liposuction."

" Another person asks when a skin cancer is removed as a plastic surgeon perform the surgery to reduce the scarring."

" I'm the common that's plastic surgical procedure done from reconstructive perspective. As mentioned was a tumor removal and scorer vision."

" And I take them most of those have to do would take care of skin cancers or lesions that need to be removed -- And perhaps improve in terms of their appearance."

" And we have to leave it there my great thanks to the both -- you for participating in please explain today are. Look at plastic surgery doctor Robert Crandall the chief of plastic and reconstructive surgery at York Presbyterian Hospital Columbia. And doctor -- or heat assistant professor at the David Geffen school of medicine at UCLA division of plastic and reconstructive surgery. It's been great thank you so much."

" Thank you very mentions in great thank you very much as well."

" And Monday's show former USC idea official gives us an insider's account to post war occupation of Iraq. And then the -- Branch Rickey the man who revolutionized baseball by bringing it to the forefront of the civil rights movement. Followed by a look at the history of Jewish players in the major leagues plus my brother Phillip -- on his essays about Susan Sontag. And Brothers. Political page it was produced privately he -- Stephen Valentino injury Corcoran. Listen -- is the executive producer and helped the commissioner can and a handy to catch it and contributing produce abundant with Dave. Debbie phantom was that the audio controls I'm left of that your host thanks for listening have a great weekend we'll see when it."

" Thanks for listening to WNYC on demand. Please check out the other programs at wnyc.org. Or on iTunes. This is a free service made available by our listeners. Become a member of WNYC today."