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" On WNYC as a cruel and Honduras is reminding people of the bad old days of military rule and extreme human rights abuses in the Americas. We will talk now here at the Aspen ideas festival. With the man devoting his career to the idea of transitional justice that is helping societies recover from periods of genocide or systematic human rights abuses. He's probably best known for helping to create south Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Of which he was the executive secretary. And he is now the co founder and executive vice president of the international center for transitional justice which works around the world. Wolf on sale also thinks the US needs a war on terror truth commission by the way we'll talk about that. And Honduras and more. Poll found -- welcomes WNYC. Delighted to be here. Do you wanna define the term first for our listeners who may not have heard it before transitional justice."

" Transitional justices how societies. Reckoned with and come to terms with. A legacy of human rights abuses. How nations look back in order to confront. Massive atrocity that is the code and how they try and deal with that through. Prosecutions. And truth commissions to -- programs. Through if it's that institutional reform."

" And in South Africa the model that listeners are probably most familiar with. It was the Truth and Reconciliation Commission but I gather from your answer it's not always that kind of process."

" nations choose to respond to the posture and very different ways off to World War II. We had the Nuremberg trials which. We're premised primarily on seeking to punish first. A high ranking states of -- of Nazis and then. A wider ranking group of Germans. South Africa chose a truth commission because of the particular nature of the transition. From apartheid to democracy in the need to. Balance. On the one hand and accountability and justice and on the other hand in the -- promotes. Reconciliation. Deeply divided society."

" Why was there we need to promote reconciliation of somebody. Looks. Starkly. The apartheid regime and the legacy of that it was very -- very one sided. And rather than reconcile once you know the truth. I'm sure a lot of people would have preferred something that they considered justice."

" Reconciliation is a controversial word with a difficult pedigree that many countries in Latin America you can be. Thrown out of the country for arguing for reconciliation because that's associated with watch. -- generals in the former Clinton won that one QQ looked to the future to forgive and forget it. A reconciliation can be a code word for amnesty and for impunity and that's not the form of reconciliation. That I would never endorse. The former reconciliation. That I -- even is one which is predicated on. Revealing the truth on delayed being justice and accountability for the crimes. On paying reparations. To victims. And then to try and bring a society that together. Based on justice and accountability knocks on that and easier or denial Paul."

" On sale within WNYC. From the international center for transitional justice. And you're following the situation in Honduras. We recently put out a -- statements on the on the Putin and Honduras and we've been very concerned about just. Not because there's -- being credible accounts of massive widespread atrocities but because. Anytime that there is a coup in the Americas in particular. There is and almost inevitable few that that was at some point you to human rights abuse from. We saw that with Pinochet we saw that with help -- protect Fujimori and for -- And once you suspend the constitution once you lift habeas corpus once you stop detaining people without trial. Torture followers once torture follows someone dies it's easy for them to be disappeared the real hold mock violation. In the Americas. So it's it's a source of tremendous concern and and I. Very gratified by both the response of President Obama. And by the and he does an order of the Americas you've come off so forcefully condemned the Q what do you think the rule of the United States here should be. I think it's. -- that the United States should not recognize this government and should ring. As much pressure as possible given the very close links political and economic and military between the united states of Honduras. I also think it's worth as a footnote looking at a broader story about. The training. Military officials. In the Americans. By the United States and I think that's screwed of the Americas which is now being renamed. Has had a very. A problematic pops. Providing training to people who have gone on seem so the military regimes and be responsible for human rights abuse and unfortunately -- It seems that the same has been true in Honduras. This might be another opportunity to reexamine. The Foreman the nature of US military training and cooperation to countries that Americans is they're legitimate form that -- could take. Actually TI at I think that military. You know I'm certainly not one who believes that all forms of military assistance and cooperation -- say that. I think it has to be done with a great degree of quotient with a strong. Emphasis on both human rights and democracy and a very this seems that the road the military used to. Is to be subordinate to civilian in the mix of authority and to safeguard country's national sovereignty. Not to become involved in replacing the saints four. -- political opposition. You have something that pertains to this country called the US accountability project what is."

" Well. It's very important win you work globally and trying to assist nations come to terms with a terrible cost. That you're not accused of being. One side that and you don't you need look at. At weak countries that are going through transitions. The United States and since 9/11. Has endorsed a set of policies that have been officially endorsed that in -- systematic human rights abuses to authorize nation of torture. Extraordinary rendition. There are still people who have been -- whose. Fate and whereabouts is unknown. That people who have died in US custody. Where independent coroners have found that those deaths were homicides and so. We believe that there has to be a reckoning in the United States in the same way as there wasn't -- off to the generals in South Africa after apartheid."

" You know President Obama seems to be against this. Did you hear in his news conference excuse me recently he was asked. If there should be -- 9/11 commission style. Truth commission. For. The torture and other treatment of detainees. And he said no he doesn't think it's necessary."

" But I think president's Obama may be seeking to conserve his political capital he has. A large number of challenges from. The small creation of a global economic crisis to healthcare reform to. Climate and energy bills just to mention three massive challenges and I think. He doesn't want to be mired in what he fears may become a distracting impostors and examination of the pots. But I fear that approach. Will in fact not suit him well because. Historical evidence has shown. That you can either choose to pro actively confront the Ponce. Or the Ponce can confront you. And I fear that what will happen with President Obama as he will not develop specific proactive policies to deal with the pasta and we will have a steady drip. Of revelations. And go shoots through. Shoots launched a ruled against the United States and security personnel working at the behest of the United States. And watch. He's he is will in fact eventually which will be divisive and distracting. Drawn out process of dealing with -- it's abuse as opposed to a focused and pro active ethic which comes clean. Which office to make -- millions and which seeks to put the past behind him."

" Did you see the 9/11 commission. Itself. Is. The project in supportive transitional justice that of course was looking at what happened leading up to the 9/11 attacks is that in the same category are not real."

" Well I think we believe that they needs to be a full investigation. All the crimes of the pos. And -- investigation. Units to look acts. What's happened to. What crimes will authorized. Through the victim's word and who the perpetrators. Of and it needs to occur in a format that is similar to but not exactly the same as the nine elevenths commission. I think we believe that the commission should be nonpartisan and rather than by -- then because the fear is always that if it's a bipartisan commission. Different actors. -- to. -- sold each other of crimes that. That it becomes too pessimistic he motivates -- than we think that. You need to have a commission whose members are beyond reproach or above politics and will investigate the crime to top fuel faith."

" My guest on WNYC is often -- South African attorney originally co founder and executive vice president of the international center. For transitional justice. Where she works on things like the south Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Which he was the executive secretary also teaches transitional justice. In new York and NYU you from South Africa originally this -- so you grew up there. At least employed in the apartheid days. I certainly did. What was it like for you and your family."

" But I was lucky I had parents who always told me you know that it's. I was living in a society that was profoundly unjust and some of my earliest memories -- of my father telling me that. What the government sponsored broad Costa was telling assassination plot muse was simply not true and that I shouldn't it be that. And so high. Unlike many many -- south Africans had. Somewhat different experience. A -- tapes and was. Always physically active. -- into university became a student activist. And -- yeah. Ignited my engagement and commitment to human rights what was an example. What they -- on the clock news. Well. We investigated. A whole range of killings under apartheid that had been conducted by state sponsored hit squads. And win prominent activists were assassinated. Everybody in the world mused that the security forces that had a hand in these killings but on the 8 o'clock news in South Africa. You. The broad Costa today a number of black people were killed and tribal factions fighting. And they try to hide the state sponsored killings as what they called black on black violence and in the work of the truth commission we uncovered many of these lies and and it admonished the state sponsored -- cost to -- reports. Without political influence and certainly without the influence of the security force."

" Sony is your reaction to something because the president of South Africa currently Jacob Zuma took part in a roundtable meeting of the World Economic Forum last month. And he said that when it comes to the issue of encouraging. Older leaders to step down from their positions and the unspoken name of his mobility. That quote the world has changed we must do things differently and not emphasized punishment. And there should be no revenge. On quote. Then when it comes to dealing with perpetrators of serious crimes he went on to say so what do you think of that statement he seems to be equating punishment with revenge. Which is kind of interest."

" Well I think it's a very regressive and outmoded. And outdated view I think that. If you look at the establishment of international criminal courts have very large number of African countries have signed and ratified. The international criminal court. And the trained to globally and an international who is to hold hit the states accountable for international crimes. And I think. It's it it's very unfortunate south Africa's post apartheid foreign policy from. Seeking to. Defeating the Burmese regime. Within the Security Council. In embracing Robert Mugabe and seeking to minimize the terrible crimes that he was responsible for. In some ways many of us in the human rights movement when looking for. South Africa ready to take the do you tend to be the principal voice on the African continent. The searching the mute for justice and for accountability. I think it's very dangerous to transpose the particularity -- off the South African situation. It's particular truth commission and the particular circumstances that it's was born from. Onto the continents as a whole. Do you think Zuma was actually calling for amnesty for Robert -- What I think nothing that presidents who now has done has indicated that he believes that problem of god be should be held accountable. For the very serious crimes that he's committed against his own people. There are. Countless acts of torture their extradition executions. Just to name two of them of the most serious crimes that the Mugabe regime and its security forces have been responsible for and so. I think if you wanting to see the signal in Africa where we've had a genocide in -- off world terrible atrocities day we had. Three million war war related deaths in the Congo. We've had that terrible rampages of the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda. You want to be calling for more justice and accountability darkness."

" You know in this country in addition to possible war on terror truth commission and accountability commission as your calling for a the other. Topic of discussion. Is that one needs to be convened. To figure out how. The banks and others -- the economy. And obviously that's not a genocide that's not a human rights abuse in the traditional sense but a lot of people's lives have been. Very negatively affected do you think that belongs in the same breath."

" Well we tend to work can focus on human rights violations. The now I think they certainly are some similarities. Between. Human rights abuse and widespread. Corruption so. In many you know in many regimes. Alberto Fujimori of rule. Ferdinand Marcos of the Philippines not only responsible for terrible human rights abuse there were also responsible for the future and looting and plundering the countries' economies. And so some people have -- for both economic crimes and human rights crimes to be investigated. Simultaneously. I don't think that's perfectly applicable an analogous in the United States context is the current global economic slowdown having an effect on your ability to pursue justice we're getting countries to pay attention. Well it's certainly a difficult time for the human rights movement and for anybody working in a nongovernmental organization. The world's biggest foundations endowments are down. -- the -- the individual donors and supporters. Are not as wealthy as they once were some very prominent human -- foundations in fact. In pasted the then -- with Bernie Madoff and in disappeared overnight slowed. This is an inauspicious environment but it's also an environment which I think. In which the work is all the more importance. Economic crisis around the world is. Beginning to affect states which are ready -- job and precarious. That is having a very detrimental effects on human rights situation in this country seamless thing and since we're doing this and ideas festival. Is the idea of transitional justice as you define it. New with the south Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission or does it go back from them. The fish truth commission to establish in the world was in fact in Argentina. In the early 198 she's in the wake of the collapse of the quintet. And so we've had a quarter of a century of experience. Off of truth commissions as a mechanism for dealing with the -- but some people would. Date the first transitional justice experiences. As he had back to junior improve what is certain is that. We've seen an enormous. Increasing in both energy and attention paid. Two transitional justice the -- of the international criminal court. More than fishy truth commissions in the world hybrid tribunal such as those in Cambodia. Apparently operation in the very synergistic way. So the world is beginning to realize that the way to generate sustainable peace is to -- accountability for pot's crimes."

" Poll -- style. He is co founder and executive director executive vice president of the international center for transitional justice thank you very much. Thank you."

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