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" Live from the Aspen ideas festival in Aspen Colorado Brian -- What they got everybody. And how is this idea. The way we live on the Internet today especially kids and adults who have grown up with the -- Could be changing not just society both the nature of the human brain. That sounds like hyperbole right and we'll see if it is as we talk about being human in the digital world. But listen to some of the things that people are saying we are thrilled to have with us here game designer Will Wright creator of great games including -- And descends the sense in which people build household sent interacting. Communities is the best selling computer game of all time. He has that games like his are giving rise to a human -- grain and we'll see really means by the John Paul free from Harvard's Berkman center for Internet and society is here too he's the author of born digital understanding the first generation of digital natives. And one review of his book and we'll find out how close this. Categorize this characterization comes to a he -- But this review says he thinks people growing up with the web or so acclimated to cyberspace. That they verge on being another species. So could digital living really Foster changes this profound. And Patricia cool if he or she is not an Internet expert or a game developer her specialty is the human brain. She is director of the university of Washington's science of learning center internationally recognized for her research on how -- young children learn. Including how early exposure to language. Developed brain doctor Patricia cool is with us please welcome my guests. For a brief three of our seven guests because we also have an audience for talented high school juniors from around the country. Here at the ideas festival as part of the days of scholars program. They are all luck -- pollster calls digital natives and they're gonna keep the grown -- here honest and tell us if they feel like a different species from their parents. -- this would not be the first generation to feel like that. Our -- our scholars -- Jane O'Brien from Milford New York near Cooperstown. Committee ties to Sierra from buffalo Simon bombing from Kalamazoo Michigan and Bobby as nerd. From the Bronx and -- And it's got -- feel do we have a microphone for for obvious there's a scholars okay. Who spends more than an hour a day typically online raise your hands. 12. Only to review the the two boys okay. More than two hours a day guys."

" Definitely I think that I remained locked in -- some social networking sites. The route. The time that I spend at home. Perhaps for no good reason other than I want to stay informed and CEO of the things that are popping up on my feed. See whenever announces Q there's nothing else to do in the Bronx. I mean certainly there are I'm not saying that I come home from school or around 4 o'clock and stay online tonight."

" Look at suddenly you're turned to -- not really yet I think great distraction now when you're doing homework so I just like to keep it you know -- on that day -- probably about two hours. What's the biggest share assignment -- your time spent online doing what. Sometimes violent -- so I I injured enjoy doing research but mostly FaceBook. FaceBook and checking email with the major -- harm committee the bulk of your time spent online and doing what."

" It's kind of evenly divided between -- FaceBook -- social networking site and sometimes even. You can go online very common purpose may be related to school and you you hate on Wikipedia and then. Other sites you can end up jumping up to different sites as its its divide between social networking and maybe random search and -- question. Everything is senate majority of my time on line -- for around for school. But also on FaceBook and using email for school related projects as well."

" Homework you do homework most of the time. You know we're gonna talk about a digital of sorry generational divide. Between you guys -- grown ups. Do you have siblings written vision and -- simple and so forth you have siblings. Older younger. Younger the only younger siblings do you find that you and your siblings used the web differently that even that much of an age difference -- smiling too many hello posters have."

" And about it was fifteen actually -- it then you're just sixteen and then. 717 okay and we actually had an older sister who's actually mine and you've been different country and it's my brother and I same pattern. -- and he's and had quite a lot where we're a bit more home almost kind of secluded on mine. You know we do have those kind of relationships -- my sisters and the sister have been an environment in which personal relationships. Not more so she's much more in your face and she looks interact with people as remote a bit more quiet --"

" There interest in that Malibu and Aspen breakout session. Later on line all the kids in the days of scholars program seem to be first points. Since you'll have fun. Younger siblings -- replicate what you guys in a minute John -- free. And -- the thing about digital natives verging on being another species in the review of your book on. Book list not in your book how close to that would you go in your own words."

" I think that's probably eight misleading term I didn't read it myself accident. Notion of digital natives is an uncomfortable term we didn't make it up we tried to claim it basically I think that each of the young people here in the business scholars program would follow in that category. Born after 1980 have access to these technologies have great computers skills. I think one of the big concerns is that. It really is a population has in the generation of doing people who are doing so only one point three million out of the six point eight billion people around the world have access to Internet. And even in wealthy societies like our thoughts people don't have they're great skills to use it. So I think is crucial in fact everything about it is a population as a species and also note that laws have grown -- to use technology in ways that are just -- the skin -- or business dollars. When an instinct things look at you for sure is that flattening effect of gaming gaming is one of the few things that in fact joins people across socioeconomic divides and other. Areas and brings -- people from different aspects of society together in the."

" Respect so flattening effect in this case is a good thing because -- it then that means it's equally distributed across different by socio economically exactly and it's there's a big SES that I and in some of that. They're sophisticated usage is for learning but gaming is actually something that a processor economic groups we actually see very similar behavior -- so what about some of the characteristics of this population -- of of those who are digital natives. Where to start intellectually. Socially maybe even emotionally committee talked about. Her sister from Ethiopia is not aligned so much having more sort of face to face relationships."

" I think it's deeply profound what we're seeing here I think they're way in which digital natives relate to information to one another and institutions each is changing in important ways. There are good parts about parts this of course I think the way they've learned is really different you heard already that extent to which Wikipedia and search has replaced a lot of the ways. Kids have done a search in the past I think the way they relate when another friendship is changing dramatically -- true -- more about that from doctor to. That way in which they relate to institutions their schools institutions like government and so forth and people around the world I think there actually is an emerging global culture additional natives which I think -- profound and important. And also they face new problems privacy safety. Intellectual property concerns and so forth and I think each of these is worth addressing."

" You wanna give me eight. For better example and for worse example we can't do an exhaustive list right now but what one on each side of that -- stand -- Su on the plus."

" I don't think creativity is the primary one I would bet you that each of the business scholars here can do things that would blow your mind but there's back to using technology in the learning setting. And we're not yet tapping into that two discussion earlier about education secretary -- and I think one of the things that we could be doing. This figure out how to capstone projects and other things in schools tap into this creativity in ways that I think would really transform education that's your places like Harvard Law School. Just as in high school sending. I think on the negative side of the ledger I am really concerned about the extent to which young people are in a situation where they don't always have the same skills to navigate and information space -- sticking with the learning space I think there are lots of kids who in fact get less good education by virtue of how they're using. The web in part because we're not keeping them in schools the same sophisticated skills than my guess is these business scholars have. And I actually think there's the possibility. Of driving in larger digital participation -- to use the words of Henry Jenkins and -- Hargitay to scholars to look at this and we in fact could be put growing apart the haves and the have nots and gaming -- may be one of the ways to bring them back together."

" So let's talk to a game developer Will Wright and we'll find Mike commands start with that. The phrase that I picked out of yours in the intro this massive brain may have brain that we might developer for play games like yours enough -- Why don't you just gains I think just the whole technology change we're seeing right now is on his inner connectedness. Between individuals forming larger intelligence sources and you look at the collective behavior that they have available to them. They act very lean mean -- human and all that and human in some sense. But I think a lot of what we're dealing with culturally here is a result of the fact of how quickly the change is coming. When there's slogan logical change like two centuries ago its market tighter risk arising with this mortgage title away. And the tidal wave there are few people like the kids here that at the top that tidal wave. Other people like the educational institutions and maybe halfway up not down there are using this technology you know he's effectively as it's being discovered from the ground up with the kids. In the western society is from the bottom you know the put that -- have been so I think a lot of our cultural power of uncle wellness around this. Has to do with that kind of radiant you know of adoption of the technology."

" The Sims and spore. Are hardly in the same category -- race card games and no one wins or loses or first person shooter games. In The -- you build households and communities in the game appeal strongly to women demographically in spore you make choices to evolve from -- single spore. Two entire galaxies of creatures and societies what are you hoping that people can't. Fundamentally from your games that can actually were just that wolf both the sentence."

" Or are fundamentally creative games in on the substance that -- lot of debt to crumble constructive as it approaches to education. Where the kid coming -- given tools for free expression. And great things and share them. Other thing too much more motivated because they have a personal connection is having on me rather a story George Lucas is telling me. But we're also finding that the communities the -- opera on these things. -- get very are. Very interestingly interconnected. -- cool ways almost a hobby it's more like you know model train sets. That is going to a movie. And so I think that in some sense the people playing these games he uses tools for some expressions are amplifiers and some since an amplifier for their creativity. And able to do things that they didn't think they can do before. And so I think that's empowering these kids in those posters and a couple of hours. Know blowing up a few things the fact that actually creates wrinkles story and ensure that those people so I think the sharing social aspect of that is really this to keep driving factor."

" So back to a -- scholars. Fifteen notes at funerals for a minute who among the for a view. Has plates for any of you. None of your place -- to be standing I guess how about that the sentence have you ever played the sense. Yeah that all four of you have played with Sam's okay why why do you play the sense Bobby from the Bronx."

" I think it's really funny that you can treat people who like. In intentionally by your design will -- each other and watch them. Turn into a gigantic dust cloud as they fight and then. Thereafter watch them not talk to each other I think stuff like that is really funny. I see you're creating conflict is this isn't what you have in mind well -- Well basically -- the -- societies you know and have played really is about to meet those domestic real entering into a -- caricature. And then -- playing with a range there all the the behavior of committee from buffalo what do you do."

" One cents. Actually it. I really like the creative aspect and up building my house is and I like the social interactions. What things they don't do those but I don't actually use on my knees as -- that you sins for which might make it a bit more and against have been -- connected to other people. But in the fact that the games to sign such that you can interact with other neighborhood you know it's not necessary that people. And she -- so let them fight with each other than not talk to each other can't help. And again that I am close hopefully gain -- you."

" I don't know I have experienced standards."

" But what. Appealed to me the most -- the game was again the creative aspect and designing the architecture actually -- rises. On assignment."

" I would usually plays into with my friend but I have to say I -- place in -- and -- golf more and more more of that you know. I kind of creativity you know I enjoyed a premium on city and the obstacles I. I'm a big fan SimCity 3000 since -- for an have a those. And I play -- with my friends mostly for that creative aspect and how. You can actually create a person you know you may -- you wish to be you know that's not my particular feeling but I know friends who do that."

" Patricia cool. You study earlier language development on children's brains. You could interacting online. Be it FaceBook or this and so whatever. Be comparable to learning a language and that learning the language of games and the Internet have similar effects on brain development. As learning English or Spanish."

" Well it's a really interesting question Brian. As a brain scientist you care about everything that children and adults are engaged -- because you wanna know what's that doing to their brains. I'm interested in learning over the lifespan particularly in the first five years. And it turns out that we learned so much more. Fundamental information in the first before puberty. And we learn after and what you're asking about games is very interesting because. We learn in informal settings a tremendous amount our brains just suck up the information we learn what's called implicitly. As opposed explicitly explicitly in school people giving you directions and your. Taking that information but when we interact in settings regardless of where we are just being in those environments teaches us things because our brains. Pick up that computational information automatically. And one of the things we've learned about brains is that they love social interaction. We have evolved as a species because we need to connect with other people. And so when technology. Or when educational practices like collaborative learning. Capitalize on our exclusive ability to read each other's intentions watch their eyes and movements and guess what they're going to do next. He's their social. To rein in a way that -- causes them to pick up much more information. And -- that -- vaults them forward. In a way that wouldn't exist if you worked in a social settings. So technology that mimics that. Tendency to interact with other beings is it seems to be more successful. Because of of both the implicit pick up the information. And because of a brain social drive so you think the computers are -- good developmentally for babies and toddlers well so babies and toddlers is totally different things and the days of scholars and we as adults. So we've been doing some very interesting experience on how. Babies and young children learned second languages. And we know that in natural settings children absorb. Multiple languages not so much in America because we're not exposing kids to more than one language often but in Europe three -- four languages are picked up. The kids are like sponges so what we're doing in our laboratories is and intervention. That exposes young babies at nine months for the app for the first time to Mandarin or Spanish here. Her do or whatever. Language and we expose them in a natural setting. So my graduate students who speak those native languages are playing with the kids on the floor for twelve sessions over a month period of time. And an alternative group gets the same information that over televisions. And a third group gets the same information that over an audiotape and the question is what we -- to their brains so we measure before and after. The brain sensitivity to the sounds of the languages and the words and languages. And what the research shows hands down no matter what the language is that exposing babies lives. Two other speakers of other languages they absorb the information they get so good. And -- sessions they're equal to the babies in the foreign countries who've been listening to that language for ten months. But the kids exposed over television. -- over audiotape learn nothing -- Even though they're glued today television set for all the world to believe they're just locked on and something really important is happening in their brains. Which you measure them afterwards and nothing has trance."

" Tired so is there an age where you think it might go from a net minus. Or net neutral. To a net plus for brain development."

" I think that that's something like that could be possible to define overtime so what we believe is that under the age of two. Under the age of two we and the pediatricians in general are recommending that kids aren't put in front of television sets to get them into Harvard or for any other. Purpose parents seem to believe that stimulating children with -- videotapes and televisions are are good thing but the research and thus far is saying no it's it's not. And so beyond that time though we know we're learning tremendous -- these kids and all of us are learning tremendous amounts from machines and games and you know enter at any technologies all very interesting and has applied to education it's going to be a fascinating next decade. But for the kids I think we can decide something different."

" By the way maybe these are scholars how much how much television do one tonight. Just curious committee."

" We have when -- cables I usually when there's maybe one dollars and alliance."

" That's two we began an answer from TV shows a week. Simon you're shaking your head yeah I don't watch that much may be just like one TV show once a week maybe -- He liked. It maybe that's later as a scholar at the -- up here probably. The what the right."

" everything's -- interesting particularly in television history one of the big. Gonna panic buttons is the fact that they're losing you as audience it's opportunities to enjoy your time on the web with games whatever interactive media as opposed to you know -- through the call Beckham -- back -- But in about same thing."

" Yeah I typically only watch one TV shows a week. Needy too you if Q that I happen to like have season's going don't think I went okay. My favorite TV show on television on the Bravo network -- called -- And I love this. Maybe because a I snack while I watch yeah. But it's fantastic."

" All right John Paul for author born digital what he's thinking. And thinking of self selection problem here is this guy talks about real because these other digital natives teenagers who spend hours and I was -- are also watching five hours of --"

" Absolutely absolutely and and so and it's quite wonderful I think the way you guys spend your time occurred much credit to you and your parents and keep doing it I think it's awfully good but but I think in the United States and certainly other places it's senator on the road. Most young people are spending many hours today depends on the community you're talking about and -- things is this question of replacement that will product which is as there are more kinds of distractions in the digital space does it take away from other things and what does it take it away from. It was interesting is in most cities I've seen it doesn't take away from one thing. It takes me from lots of different things so it's not just that. Television goes down from six hours to four hours because you had two hours on some city. It's that it's also not the case that nobody plays soccer anymore it's not the case that people don't talk to different face to face are actually. Have coffee it's that you have many things often happening at once. So we actually heard from a few of our business scholars that they're doing homework and also. On FaceBook and also instant messaging and probably have some music in the background may be even an iPod on. We as adults called this multitasking. That's been called to -- an adult word from the subjects that's that it in fact when he -- questions is in the classroom our students learning as much when they have a laptop in front of them and so forth. So there are lots of wrenching questions between. This issue replacement then also if you're doing more than one thing at once are you learning as much as he did in the past. Give an answer -- laptop question business like taking notes on a laptop and notebook I do -- what's interesting about if I were in a room -- of Harvard Law School students in it. Class setting -- this would not be whenever it experience this is actually quit our -- all of you people looking at me. I'm it would be a hundred people there -- after ministering to tables that would just staring into his laptop and typing. The answer and -- curious thing right that this a kind of method of the Harvard Law School is you ask questions of people on and they respond and ordinarily you'd think this is a good way to learn which it is. And you would also think that doing your email while I was having this interaction if you would mean you -- last night. And it turns that you've -- less if you're doing your email while I am doing this I am so there's a version of multitasking -- in fact it's worse for education. The interesting question is many students are actually doing some and -- which testing they're switching quickly between multiple tasks. And I think that's a place where we might have a zone. Where it's not so bad so if somebody in fact is using this set of technologies as Ethan Zuckerman is right now paying attention to a Twitter stream. -- IF OO nine classes live well also -- participating in this conversation he may be doing. Just as much if not more than another learner very recently just sent."

" Well I was trying to take it -- he's mostly talking about task switching he is referring to be using Twitter -- nothing to get out the AI FO nine -- out there. Which I am trying to monitor but I'm actually trying to get a blog post up summarizing the ideas coming our -- a scholars on the books of the states. So I may not be offensive rounds aren't."

" I think another self selected problematic yeah -- it rains and it just so people know that has much 49 is a little marker that everybody who's reading. Twittering from the ideas festival was supposed to use our on Brooke Gladstone for -- media sitting right next season. Not on line. Are you learning more than --"

" I you know what even if so far ahead of me at this point and I don't think I could ever catch up even a fight cleared away -- other distractions. I find it fascinating though. But tactically we're talking about on how social we are animals and how we learn there's lot of people who worry that people who live mostly online. People like the age of are these those scholars don't have. The same social skills because there's and not enough thought. Visual connection on the other hand there's a pew study that says you know people who spend a lot of time online -- just the socialists they are offline and can have."

" Just isn't rich experiences. I think we're -- in an experiment in progress we really don't know the answer to that. As you say it's conflicting so on the one hand you are taking as Johnson your take. Some of this activity is taking place of something else. We don't know exactly what the something else -- and it is removing us from his face to face these you know exquisite interchanges that we have with others and how much how good we are. Sort of reading other people. Because we're face to face with and so yeah our kids who are glued to their screens rather than into the faces of other people I think and get worse at that or not we don't."

" Now this -- the truth is in the game industry will be running where. Like the executives and helping companies are playing online games it will warcraft is for competitive analysis and so. There's -- a network of those executives on the lower level managers get on the same game and so for them it's like golf. It's you know business advancement through social networking -- world warcraft it's become -- golf. You know a lot of these areas and people also in games like that learned organizational skills like abilities a large questions of other people that they organized called guild. Of you know 150 people and they get our excellent organizational skills of the actually transfer the gonna resonate for a good job and people actually take it seriously."

" We will continue in a minute Bryant Lou -- yes surveys of scholars generally -- the death -- On the stimulus."

" From the Aspen ideas festival -- Aspen Colorado Brian Lara and prices. Thank you we continue. Where there -- special segment called. Being human in the digital world with game designer Will Wright creator of games including spore and the -- John Paul free from Harvard's Berkman center for Internet and society author of born digital. Understanding first generation of digital natives. Patricia cool director of the University of Washington science of learning center and -- four days of scholars high school juniors from around the country. Jane O'Brien from Milford New York to -- Casey or from buffalo Simon -- from Kalamazoo and body as -- from the Bronx now. Among the grown ups in the audience applaud if you have kids or young children who you would consider digital natives. On the question of whether their digital lives to make them more collaborative. Or more isolated. -- if you think it makes them more collaborative."

" More isolated."

" Okay not many applaud if you think they're verging on being another species from him. Applaud if your parents thought you were verging on being another species. Some things don't change so much. All right who who in the audience has question. Over there yes hello."

" and MIT now the president of the world right workshop foundation. Really great discussion I I believe that it. The new literacy is not just reading and writing. And I think their panel is reflecting this but it's all -- gain literacy game media literacy is really than you literacy and knowing how to read game. And right games is in your literacy so my question is to well. I think the most important thing is to use games to establish creativity. To facilitate and cut -- collaboration and social construction of knowledge. What do you think we need to do is not education system for. We're creating a situation that. 80% of argued are growing up to be like Hugh. When you're using you get games to cultivate creativity and design and -- ever orders thinking and creating games that I nonviolent at a very engaging and facilitating the social construction of knowledge. And developing communities that are very exciting and engaging for learning."

" All games are you at all to the technology is radically transform what they can do but you know -- the essence of games as we call agency. The fact the players interacting and driving the experienced players making decisions that have repercussions they can study and go back and try different things exploring possible expenses. Of which totally get what can storytelling environment which more based upon things like empathy. -- to watch the character with more liberal -- them so long by four. Believe an early age individual babies with their arms pulling from there -- and they are grasping things picking things up they're exiting agency. And so really I think educationally what you need to do is find ways to give the students. More control and try the experience more which is why I've always like construction with education techniques where the kid is -- learn to think anybody. And you know. They always have some passion that drives and one thing that's really you know interesting to them. And letting -- perceive that is always far more effective you know educationally we can pick up math. You know science all different things in the context of you know what they're interested in and so it's basically self corrected. Users into learning and games are all about he's -- person and experience you know the whole aspect of the game is focusing you know what happens on what you've done and we decided to do."

" Are kind of social or don't go for three hours on this guy out a -- question and I -- just curious if any of our. These are scholars have questions for -- note -- you'll criticisms or questions for anybody out here. Obviously from the Bronx."

" Oftentimes. My parents don't understand that I am working and listening to music and checking my email and unsafe but at the same time. And I wanted to know if there is any way that you can think of to come back maybe to disconnect between the."

" They needed it's -- the immigrant John Paul Prius and balance for you. Sue I think most good things start with conversation and I think the best thing would be in fact assume your parents and may may have tried this already what you're doing in my suggesting he also showed them by getting good grades and so forth -- back -- doing your homework even better than it did before. But I would emphasize the creative uninteresting things that you might do that are different so. I think it's a wonderful exchange about gaming as a new literacy it's a newsletters there -- say it's the new literacy teaching at a law school I don't wanna transform the entire Harvard Law School that got into gaming experience but I do think we can learn from it. One of the things -- mentioned there's a group in Boston called cast which has been. Using technology to let students at the end of the term create something like an interactive book as the result of their work. I think if you could create something that might look like became an interactive -- you like that showed your parents why this is so extraordinary and the experience you were having I think that's the best way to engage them in this conversation."

" How many of the parents who applauded for your kids being more collaborative as a result of being online would also applaud. That your kids. They have attention problems as a result of all this multitasking. Not a very few okay we have a question that there yes."

" Good morning and thank you so much. Jan Hamilton. President and CEO. And -- commercial medicine. Mother and grandmother and my apologies -- two minutes left in the shows so okay -- my concern is is the health of these young people that are emerging. We know that type two diabetes and obesity are epidemic in America now and that some children will die before their parents. So how are we going to address health issues. Educationally through the games and through the arena that you are creating. As we love our children grandchildren are -- generate."

" You mean so they take that educational content or do you mean because they're sitting still while they are doing this game."

" But I think we have a responsibility to teach them through the games some healthy habits. Parent will make you think about that when you create your games it was an interesting trend happening games right now driven by Nintendo actually which is to balance on the call the Wii Fit. Where there are things where we can gets up moves around and actually teaches them -- coordination balance you know things like meditation yoga even. And you're gonna -- much wider group in the really surprising pardons and these are wildly successful. You know and so there is games are opening up to much broader areas like that like -- you know like a -- fitness as well. Patricia colon photographed them."

" I think -- games and and other activities on technology our become part of our daily lives. We will try to make them more educationally. Responsible. To teach people things to do good things for their help. I think we will promote the activities through games and other and other things to get us where we wanna go. But good point who among -- action from a business goes you're gonna get the last word we have thirty seconds."

" I believe Chinese have economic times a lot of schools in my community resorting to distance education. To offset the cost of college courses advanced placement courses and I take several -- looking at TV screens and on top I am professors and neighboring schools. And wondering what your findings are and -- In -- classroom and face to face contact for teachers verses different things that we don't have time on the for the answer what do you think. I feel that it's it's very easy to tune out in distance learning environments and it's. Very difficult to participate in the interest apple people need people to learn. People at all England and allegiance is a great later in this hour thank you all."

" Much is the population of death of Jesus scholars who have wonderful audience. Well wolf will be an -- the Aspen ideas festival and other powerful announcement coming right up."

" Thanks for listening to WNYC on demand. Please check out our other programs that wnyc.org. Or on iTunes. This free service has made possible by our listeners become a member of WNYC. Today."