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" Love the quote from that promote in the time of show time everything was popped. -- music with Eric Garland. And -- McKnight they're so great if you don't hear the music side of WNYC tune in every night at seven we'll get two views now on the morality. Of the Gaza war. First from the Israeli side with deserve -- its former Israeli government official. Now a journalist here in New York and author of books including match made in heaven about Israel and the Christian right thank you for doing this welcome back to WNYC. Israel's killing hundreds of people many of them civilians with this war. While Hamas can only fire rockets across the border. That are killing few and recently killing no one is it moral to use such overwhelming force. And kill so many civilians."

" Are you asking me that that question to. I don't even understand that is the question I mean."

" So much in the world is raising that question."

" Well the good part of the -- this rate and the question is mostly that part of the world would choose it cries to have -- by the Israel whatever the question -- but if the question is an Award you tried to beat the other side. And it's killing an aspect of war those -- yes. Is that the moral war. From that trauma great enough -- presidency both sides have their -- moral -- These -- the Islamic. Radicals moral code is that mine to explain or even to understand. But from my point of view -- you have to do you know it killed the fewest number of people while accomplishing. What it have to accomplish which is to prevent. Israel from being permanently. Open season. Format files from the south of the country of -- results."

" But critics ask this may be a war of self defense since the goal is to stop the Hamas rocket fire. But is there no point where it becomes immoral. Simply to kill so many. Defenseless civilians even though they're not being targeted their collateral damage and sacrificed so many more Israeli soldiers. Then the Israelis being put at risk."

" Yeah that I think it two point at the point where. Where where the side that's doing the killing is enjoying it. I think that's immoral. And I think its board where it's no longer necessary. In other words when Hamas or whoever it is in this -- a month. Stop. Firing its missiles into Israel and more than that way it. -- the goal -- strategic goal which is -- its -- and -- exterminating Israel. When those two things happened that it will be immoral Brazil -- the life of of a single person. There until that happens to go to war. And evidently there -- the war and that has -- the both sides feel that. I think it's stupid for the frankly morally stupid divisive things so it's certainly logically stupid. War the critics of Israel -- expected Israel have as many casualties as the other side in order to make it proportional."

" How many Israelis have been killed or injured by Hamas rocket fire. Since the all out war began."

" Every Israeli lives in the bottom part of the country in the for the part of the country is injured emotionally psychologically. Every time Rocketboom."

" I've heard that the number actually killed zero is that correct."

" I hope so. I certainly hope that zero. It's not that because of that trying to kill Israelis this shooting indiscriminately at Israelis but the fact that there inept at it doesn't mean that they're not shooting. And I certainly don't. I think that period you know that. That -- we we -- a -- of -- people just so that'll be equal to a number of there doesn't I think that the does that is illogical. Requests."

" I'm gonna play a clip of -- curry Lebanese -- journalist. On the show the other. Talking about actually you know other let me hold that -- the -- Clinton a lesser a couple of other questions to sort by the way around -- well. Hamas broke the cease fire. But even many who do not support Hamas. Say Israel was maintaining warlike conditions in Gaza during the cease fire. -- so let's play that -- Corey -- Before Hamas decided and the cease fire."

" did withdraw its settlers and troops from. -- about it and circle that it's triangular -- it has kept assassinating people and the war continued between a mask. And the Israelis it was not a normal peaceful situation there was there are. Strong issues between them that have not been resolved and Israel continues to. Have a stranglehold on the people of doesn't you have about 60% of children and guess any -- From the UN statistics and the and and he hit take two would be after the -- to have kids were anemic and stopped. Small for their size so there's a big source image of issues between Israel. And and and the Gaza Strip and and how mass."

" How do you react to that. List of insults to the Gaza population including what he called dumb and circling it in Strang relating it during the the cease fire period for him fear. Leaving he says you know to such hunger that there was Anemia. Way on the rise among the children of Gaza."

" Look I don't know in -- chlorine doesn't know about the Anemia those who have US statistics for more Enron or Enron the this is affecting 49 has been a Palestinian. Spoke organizations. I hope that it's it's not true. As far as he's -- he says he's right there's a war between Israel and Hamas there was before the cease fire the cease fire came to see the fire of the previous. Fighting. If there will be a war evidently between Israel and Obama didn't it didn't -- one of the sides. Changes its strategic desire to market competing desire wealth of creative often and loudly it probably is the extermination of Israel. Israel strategic desire is to. Have quiet about it southern border so it can live -- the Jewish state go to the and the you can go back to you know World War I which is in the Hamas charter -- they say that -- Started World War I in the -- started World War II. In the Jews controlled the device she didn't say in the end. Bryant matter that they zionist just like that separates. You know this book and to this. Nonsense -- there's the facts are that this was good -- as a as a sovereign country. And as a bunch of people are by the Iranians who are in southern border we're shooting rockets into it as many as they can't. To kill as many -- as possible and at some time. Israel decided that it wouldn't. Agreed to that happening any more than using main force. And I would like to just add to that. That the of the -- I think it's a -- people misunderstand Israel there is that they think that the great student of Israel but they misunderstand how. Completely his -- got prepared for this to happen."

" We looked up the stats at least according to the BBC yesterday some 820 dozens and thirteen Israelis. Have reportedly died in fourteen feet at fourteen days of fighting. Medical staff. Quoted by the PB BC I'm not sure whose medical staff sent 235. Children. -- among the Palestinians dead. And the UN stop humanitarian aid convoys the other day because they say Israel repeatedly promised to let the aid trucks go in unimpeded. Then on various occasions attacked them. Is the UN lying is Israel doing something immoral about incidents but."

" While I'm sure do you -- line because you always lies about the look and by the way. According to the UN they've renewed there and it was today. Did Israel -- I don't know maybe."

" But the fact of the matter is that -- the -- that amounts to three hours. You know medical and that food supply is going -- You know is this the perfect situation and took we all happy about it now we're now happy about it we're very unhappy about it. Brazil. Wrong and attacking Obama put it hides among civilians have been absolutely not."

" Should we -- other way to deal with this shouldn't be your body count by neutral agencies during any war."

" Well you know other should be on the bulk -- So you know look let's come up -- if that's the measure of the international morality that come up I'm sure that by that standard the United States was very wrong in World War II. I'm sure that by that standard any time a democracy is fighting. Attempted enemies is wrong especially if it's more powerful listen console. Is our standard of morality and I think that it is all usually imposed only on Israel's."

" Before you go on the strategy and where this could leave many observers say the war cannot succeed even from Israel's point of view. Because of the nature of guerrilla warfare. He'll never be able to really destroy all the weapons are all the tunnels for smuggling in weapons they'll create even more Palestinians. Willing to attack Israel and revenge for this war and the cycle will be perpetuated as a result of this not come to an end do you disagree with that scenario."

" It is liberals. Doctrine that the bill could ever since being that there is no such thing in the winnable war. I would like saved in my opinion there is such a thing of the winnable war that you will certainly win this war. It because it won't stop until it went that it it will define victory is not being obliterated by Obama. People who think that there's no such thing -- it was a winnable war don't. Understand Israel and they don't understand. You know what board could accomplish what force have to accomplish. Prevent. Aggression."

" is what happened in Lebanon. In 2006 a cautionary tale I've read that Israel hoped to wipe out. His -- that they survived and is now we on to a point that stronger than before the war from what I've read."

" Labatt. -- I've heard you believe you. Yeah but I don't think it's cautionary in the third. I mean it would have caught in Israel from. Waged war stupidly and poorly because -- their -- those who -- for more intelligently and better which I think is what's happening to him. Got a problem not positive yet. And the idea that we're creating it was creating more animosity. Among Hamas which is already."

" Lol I didn't say anything among Hamas the question was among more Palestinians."

" Well I don't know I don't know I think the file or Palestinian unlike field of animosity toward Obama friendly. But if I want to -- Obama and actually you know liberal elected by the Palestinians. That was their choice and they knew Hamas and help out in the floor in the platform. So if -- elected somebody want to shoot at it as an enemy that would. I had cut 300 times stronger than me and I pit stop -- so much that the enemy responded with real force. I think that might blame the idiot who started that. Firing at the enemy in the first place."

" Twenty seconds what would it take to really stop. The smuggling of weapons to support Hamas by Iran or anybody else -- Israel is Israel going to have to take over the Egypt Gaza border crossing."

" As long as hallmark is determined to smuggle into. Weapons of the Iranian weapons primarily into its territory. Then somebody has to control from that that from happening there and -- good choice and water is too. No longer have a government in Gaza would -- intent on smuggling and offensive weapons and using them and the other about the possibility is that those. Boon for the busy area where the smartly picked later to be controlled. Either by international force or if there is no international force that will do it than by Israel."

" All right we get a Palestinian view and that's fifty fits former Israeli government official now journalists here in New York author of books including match made in heaven about Israel on the Christian right thank you so much. Now guys I'll Omare former peace negotiator for the Palestinian Authority in 2002001. Now with the new America foundation think tank mr. Alomar thank you for coming on welcome to WNYC. Yeah. Both Israel and Hamas rejected the UN and Egyptian cease fire plants what's hamas'. End game here did they not care. As of -- as we just posing the question if hundreds more of Gaza and -- in these attacks that they invited."

" I think open to achieve -- vis a vis Israel but also reason be it Egypt and vis a vis the Palestinian Authority. Unfortunately the F from a -- look particularly terrible to -- has put these they're using the casualties as a way of include improving their own and standing -- of the -- unfortunately Israel has been obliging by being discriminatory that tax. So we have a very -- to war here."

" What's the morality of what Hamas is doing. With respect to the treatment of its own people."

" I think there's no what attitude but mrs. to the pipa come up with -- the amounts wants to. The more scheduled to that there are the more anger and the out of street and the Portland street today against Israel but also against the west -- it's out of governments which are pro western. And the more -- to -- beit you aren't on the show outside of what to expect from more beatable Obama would of the and decide to or benefitting from this."

" Why don't the people of Gaza see that and rebel against their government."

" When you're on the fire when you're being blown to you don't tend to think. Of the evening pupil and you've claimed -- what bombing. I wouldn't to a so much of what -- under bombardment to the city hard to look to blamed Israel is in the heat of the moment. The conduct pressure brings unanimity. And the west who I think it's worth it has got the trunk. The more you prefer the people of -- reportedly would that I would from a -- situation. Where the people of Gaza but given the chance. To live a normal life that would roll it between them on the extreme otherwise there would be continued -- identification but two between them and."

" Why isn't there more global condemnation. Of Hamas the way there's the global condemnation of the war as being waged on the Israeli side for those of change for -- was describing there was a six month cease fire which must send it on December 19. If they thought Israel would retaliate time like this -- they started lobbing rockets at Israeli towns. And cities again across the border to invite this and use their own people in the way that you described. Is the world just anti Israel."

" So I think if you look at the beginning of the crisis the first few days there was definitely be. Google book but more -- and the Arab condemnation of from or at least stuck with support for -- that the particular look is mocked and as we have pictures of -- buying in the you excludes being bombed. It makes it very hard to continue to. So in -- quick thoughts about and all of the criticism would have to glue would go to Israel -- who have been seeing unfortunately Israel who. Arrogance of power has made not only be far more popular but had made the job of all the what sort trying to reach a more moderate this council trying to. -- the -- the more more that's street submit our troubled more difficult."

" If this was going on with the United States government doing this and inviting attacks a lot of Americans getting killed. People of the United States would rise up against our government so it's not just human nature to coalesce around the external enemy."

" This and it also have been I would there's also. Program. A political by mentioned to with the club in Israel -- approaching good election. What public opinion public pressure becomes more more important -- I think Hamas is actually. All of the time to end the unit is far more than that that -- put the and bought what would've hoped that Israel would be more -- in a post that. And more importantly also that we are getting into that four and two questions what to expect but that the strategy what's next how we gonna make true that this is not going to be repeated in the future."

" What is the end game here as far as Hamas. Is trying to play it do you think."

" ultimately I think wants to take over the Palestinian national and this is the ultimate called it see it domestically that could agreement that would -- competency. Gains. We'll have to get a -- Paramount has not acting in isolation have that also receiving instruction from Iran. Which -- an unstable and that he predicted in the sort of from the Muslim brotherhood. Which wants public pummeled the more than about a regime that -- just think how Egypt was the first for the department. But -- it on Hezbollah but that's what the brotherhood Al-Jazeera network. So effective and number of the because their objectives here -- a far more concerned they won't survive the war the -- people sort of victory. The looked confident that the parting don't and the is that that -- springboard tactical for the rest of Christian festival for."

" Well it doesn't sound like it's really in the interest of Palestinians -- in the interest of other Arab so why don't other Arab governments. Coalesce around the Palestinian Authority and and the Palestinian Authority slash Israeli government peace process as old as it is right now and and more. Overtly. Joined the effort to isolate maybe even destroy if necessary Hamas as a political entity."

" And -- more pro western. More developed countries do in this country like Egypt Jordan from except -- Arabia and other Arab countries though. Which technology and demand that countries like Syria. What secular looking at this. As a way of actually proving its own bargaining position because incoming yet administration and ultimately that the Israel. The public school and I think there on the peace process though is that it has -- discredited. Years and years of talking and the results. Has made it very hard to publicly just before continuing to support it so I remember when Israel withdrew from -- a couple of years ago. You know that's what that and they refused an attempt to do with the negotiate -- have a habit that interest things slogans but that the use of resistance. -- ten years of negotiations. The messages appointments to these negotiations stopped. If and that can -- the conflict -- some significant gains. -- the people that appears to be stored with Google did have problems and north bank -- the peace conference. Then we're gonna have the more support from and wouldn't be having the wrong for yet another. Public of this sort in the in the near future we have to -- the peace talks about it."

" Well you're Palestinian negotiator toddler at the end of the Clinton administration. When a deal is almost reached can Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Go back to the terms of Taba declare them a deal and put them to vote on both sides because they say it's the right thing and to marginalize Hamas. "

" but more work needs to be done but to I think not much work to do need to be done and get this is the adoption to reach a peace deal. More of that stuff on the top line. With the remaining gaps public could be -- Band and present about have been -- and that you would have to put on the for a referendum or four. For a vote. I think this is all the which ultimately the thought about because as the previous speaker I think we're sitting. Or I think maybe you were saying that the math is all tried the guitar sort of -- political organization but it can only be redeveloped and destroyed. If its political platform that this front and that can only be done full peace process. Unfortunately not that the questionable that Israel is giving that functionality at the moment. Are capable of reaching it on their -- and we do need a truck -- yet voted Republican broke the public that would be that --"

" I think all Omar's former peace negotiator for the Palestinian Authority now with the new America foundation think tank or two views. Of the morality of the Gaza war from -- treatments and a Thelma thank you very much. Raymond WNYC. Take -- deep breath. Coming over the minute. The best and worst jobs. They -- Thanks for listening to WNYC on demand please check out our other programs at wnyc.org. Or on iTunes this free service has made possible by our listeners become a member OW NYC today."