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" The first time pursue them dealer came across a -- old smokey honey eater and you species of bird he discovered in a remote Papua New Guinea -- several years ago. He ignored it. That's because it looks so much like its cousin the common smoky honey -- In his latest book lost worlds mr. -- explains that the common smokey and either with so common it had become a nuisance. He says in fact it was the first bird that would appear in your binoculars everytime you're looking for something rare and desirable. This book is published by Yale University press and I'm very pleased that brings -- to the show today hello. Thank you so much great to be here can you describe what it felt like to identify new species is this something that. Happens only bare ruined."

" Well if you're working on birds it happens rarely. The birds have really been well worked over globally. Because there feathery an attractive just like the butterflies in the orchids in the -- to -- very popular with the British back in the colonial Victorian here. Some the other groups like the frogs. Some of the plant groups. Many of the insect groups. Are still. Very report in around so as -- man of course I want discovering new bird so there aren't too many that remain unidentified and unnamed. That's correct most of them in fact our would be in. Amazonian and the Andes of south America's debate is essentially the bird continent. Although you discovered your bird away and you with a group of people in New Guinea people who work. Likely to discover new things. Authorities on frogs butterflies. Plants that's right small mammals. And we discovered more than on this one single trip. In two weeks up on top of this mountain we discovered more than forty species and signs which is pretty remarkable. So you didn't mention Papua New Guinea I would assume that it is one of the places we have most likely to discovered it is there -- three great wilderness is still on earth. Or three great tropical wilderness associates' one is the island of New Guinea. Which is the largest tropical island. One as the Congo place -- Africa and of course the last and most important is that the mighty Amazon. And I've heard that you received a flood of emails from the public -- discovery was. Announce -- surprised at how excited the general public becomes that I was about finding -- Field biologists. Tend to labor in obscurity. We do our job we love being in nature and we love telling her story but we tend teller store you each other. And it's pretty rare. That we get to spend time with people like yourself on the radio or on TV so it was a surprise to us. He discovered the species in an area in western New Guinea that it's extremely difficult to reach had to get there. Well you know weeks. I first test stated my intention to go there in 1978. Or 97 in line the most the remotest part of the world news it's in some ways is. It took me some 27 years to get there so. Other political impediments to going and their physical impediments to going and then. There in for structural impediments to going so difficult to get a visa to do research in western Kinney and why senate because they want to protect the area. You know some areas search you know around the world are treated as sensitive think put yourself as think of yourself as an Indonesian side its warning to do work in. Some stayed in the US could be many many political impediments to doing. That this kind of expiration work in the United States. Mainly because national governments tend to be quite bureaucratic. This particular area western New Guinea. Has suffered from a separatist movement for about ten or twelve years. And that was the main reasons there was there was actual political stability and and the military. Really didn't want foreigners of any strike in the air snooping around. But you concluded that you and your colleagues were likely the first people to ever have visited this train -- is called the photo. I say -- mountains -- Other people safe -- no signs that humans have ever none in the area not exactly. In fact. Our our colleague Jerry diamond of guns germs and steel fame. Went there in 1979 so he went there and did a birds serve today. It just work did to some very quick for surveys which actually discovered. Rediscovered a very important. Lost power bird. He found out improved -- that that was from this mountain range to -- yes. But there had been any comprehensive biological surveys they're so we're splitting -- a little -- he went there. In 1979. We didn't get back there to 2005 -- to see how isolated it is -- about the local people why haven't they wanted him there. Well no it's strange because indicator -- there're a number. The dozens and dozens of mountain people these are forest people who live in the mountains. Who climb over the highest peaks is they go up even as high as the glaciers this is 1415000. Feet. And yet in this little mountain range the people who live around -- and people they like the hot steamy jungle. They are mountain people and they don't did deign to -- into this -- for summaries and they do one of the reasons they say is that. There's at their Spirit place is in the summits of these mountains and they don't really want to go up and meet those spirits face on."

" But still you had two local men Isaac and Timothy who act as guides. And shared information about all of these. Yeah rare birds has animals that you're looking for that's true so how did they know so much about them if they if they were saying in the -- oral tradition."

" Clearly at times they're people the -- the seine the group of people. They're their relatives their grandfathers or great grandfather's -- aunts and uncles had gone up and these mountains for reasons. That it that they know what we don't. So. Why they don't call here anymore I don't know. In some cases -- during the war. When they started seeing dog fights between American and Japanese fighter planes. Many of the people in these villages they come up at a different pizza when -- hit in the forest they went up into the hills. And hit it could've been at those times that they went up and and discovered these things. You rate that you have in the past mistakenly believe that the locals weren't disinterested. As you were as an outsider in. The -- the whole matter of these -- these -- are well it's complicated because of course. It take these -- Timothy and Isaak and they're the leaders of these two tribes. They live in the rain forest they think of the rainforest as there whole environment. And they they can't imagine not being there column. And it it it's their patrimony. So they can't imagine it being in danger frankly because they haven't actually seen the -- oil -- Developers that haven't gotten to them yet so they can't really imagine I think what you write just 7% of the Earth's surface is covered battering parts. How much land was rainforest on -- years ago. I think probably I'd I don't know that number but on the order of it was probably twice to three times as much. It it would it is the last of those natural environments it's really pin heavily it. Because it's one of the most difficult to develop so really in the last 25 years was seen most of the construction. Our local people often reluctant to set aside an area of the farmers to be protected to conserve. Well. You -- one of the questions do you have conservation with people without. And working conservation international all our work we start from the grassroots up so you're always used conversation starts at the community. And the concept is that the local communities the local forest people will be the stewards of those forests so you never aspirants conservationist. Two trans locate. Those -- away from the forest you want the people nearest the forest to be the ones. Having that poise and can actually actively -- because there there in their backyard something bad starts to happen here -- the ones that ski it. Often you get a governments that are distant. -- have a government park office has 20300 miles away from the park. They you don't even have the money to visit the park and check it it's a local communities in the forest. Who were the ones who can actually protect forest so what happens when outsiders even fellow countryman come in there and tell them. What would be best when they have their own ideas. Well it's a conversation can be complicated and and and even us you know conservation international a Washington based organization. We don't go in and tell them what to do we what we don't try to do is provide options. Give them ideas tell them what's happening in other places in some cases. Take leaders to places where they can see oil -- first hand -- large scale industrial launching firsthand. So they can get an idea of what the impact of these sorts of large scale development community."

" My guest is Bruce M dealer whose latest book is lost -- adventures. In the tropical rainforest published -- you university press. You've made trips to Madagascar. Indonesia the Philippines Panama the Ivory -- other areas in Papua New Guinea. Did you find that the indigenous people pretty much. Of of the a similar mind when he came to the way they related to their --"

" I think that you know what this had discoveries. This would work around the world in the tropics is. In many cases. The indigenous people have moved. Where they have been encouraged him or they physically have been forced off their lands. Or are gone. So in places like New Guinea is -- is that's one of the few places where. The indigenous people are not only in the forest but -- actually running the government's so many places I would say. The indigenous groups are more threat and the wildlife that were concerned so we need to conserve these indigenous communities. Their language their culture as well as the wildlife and -- as it's a package as we --"

" And in the Amazon were only recently. The Brazilian government and the Venezuelan government have realized that perhaps it's in the best interest to help these indigenous people instead of eradicate them there have been genocide all periods. Or force them out of their lands of force them into the city's."

" So I think I think we horror. Moving in the right direction and governments are in -- older as a whole network of indigenous reserves. So these are parks these are indigenous reserves is a big tracts of forest. That have rich populations of wild life. And had indigenous people living in them and managing these areas for there long term well being so it's a great idea."

" Let's go back to the four hearing for OK you say it's hard to appreciate. Visiting a place free of cat's black rats minor birds starling and house sparrows let alone strip malls paved roads and sport utility vehicles. Do you know of any other untouched places waiting to be discovered."

" Well I I'm sure they're there -- there are few places in western New Guinea that I would you know tell you go to maybe -- could marble mountains. Or the fact fact mountains farther west these are against small mountain ranges that are off the beaten track not enough not sort of means. Main routes that people people travel. Certainly there'll be some in the corners of the Andes and probably in the Congo was well. They are well known that's why they haven't been visited because. You know people like myself naturalist explorers. Biologist. Pore over maps we now have Google earth we can zoom in on -- place and see it from the air. Is really it's it's hard for these little corners of the world to hide. Well in the past anthropologists were concerned that they might affect the culture of by bringing in western ideas. We concern that you visit to the -- might set on we're seeing changes in motion kind of the butterfly effect. That's a good question and people are concerned about that. What the simple fact is that the reason we what did this survey was because. We had. Started a project. That was dedicated to conserving this larger ecosystem that includes the Ford announces that it's the largest. On road attractive tropical rainforest in the whole Asia Pacific regions called the bumper on the base at about eight million hectares that's about twelve million acres. Not a single road crossing it. This is one that jewels in the crown of Asia Pacific. Natural world we think it's a little bit like a small version of the Amazon. Important for the climate important for climate change. One of Indonesia's tools. The fact is that we. Our our mandate is to the globe too close of global well being the local people are part of the conversation and they will be part of the decision making. But in some cases these resources transcend the importance of these resources transcend. These local communities now in fairness. The local communities want development to they want to see change -- they feel isolated they have no road they can't you know take a Jeep and get to the city they have to. Hitch a ride on a motor canoe and cross -- and get on a tug boat you know little putt putt boat to take heed the capital. Most of the communities if you talk to them on the what are they need most access to medicine. -- hospitals. Better education a lot of that comes with transportation so. Most of the communities even though they're pro conservation are also pro development and some technologies would actually make their lives easier absolutely even just the introduction of the the steel acts at one point absolute it was a huge change in this case what they're probably asking for is slower. Solar electricity so the -- a blanket -- can ever for traders to war. Medicines. Vaccines. And he's -- ends things like that all those things are important to their well being."

" He -- a funny story about your first foray into the jungle of Papua New Guinea. When you're 23 year old student accompanied by a pitch in speaking. A couple of -- speaking local guy that's right. TT and T mean teammates. And days. Would eat everything that was killed and he could trying to save them for your research."

" But he could pass that says that they well I think there's a negotiation in there -- hot they're they're your hosting guides and you have to vandals -- and it killed every state they sought. Why even a harmless ones well. Most of the people who live today on the island of New Guinea are barefoot they have. -- probably worn shoes or flip flops you know in at times. In the conditions they live in in the village they wear out very quickly. They don't have access to regular access to Wal-Mart. Target. So appear for a person in the forest is at risk that he step -- one of these poisonous snakes -- you don't you can't get to the hospitals and essentially so. It's it's a simple equation the killer restate it reduces the chances that they are they're chilled to dives snake -- and number of people -- snake bite. In places worked in pop -- and it appears sad part -- apartment."

" There's been talk recently about how nature and eco tourism could allow local people to earn money and help protect the environment. We've seen this editing in Costa Rica but now that talking about it in places like Madagascar. You've said it usually doesn't work out that -- lineup."

" Well it is complicated. Because. One of the main difficulties is equitable sharing of benefits that's mainly consist mainly cash. The resource is -- either. In informally or formally belonging to the local communities these may be indigenous communities but it's hard for indigenous communities to establish. The kind of tourist services that are wanted by the international traveler so what instead happens is middlemen -- middle people coming and either from a foreign country or from the capital will come -- and set up. The whole infrastructure they'll build a lodge. Don't create all the transportation. So what happens is most of the benefits goes back to the capital and doesn't really cut -- who handled very carefully. Doesn't go to the communities we have to be very cautious about."

" But at the same time I'd imagine that the cultural divide between the indigenous people on the tourist would be so wide that you need middleman. Probably you know what is hard for the the the local groups is to anticipate. What food the local people the visitors want and how they want their lodging. But what they -- it's just that's that's the cultural divide so you do need. Someone to tell. What what works what doesn't work. He used. You say that you honeymoon with the wife Carol along the C river in the luck can move basin in Papua New Guinea in 1982. And you're a -- grandmother gave you only have your wedding gift -- 500 dollars but the social people. She sits you're gonna give you the 500 if you return from the jungle still married and creative desires and a lot of -- that that put a lot of pressure on moderately it was just it was just. I it was a wonderful you never forget something that. Machine. Bless her soul. Had a sense of humor. And practical nature too because there was there was a core of practicality it there she was very generous and yet she knew that. You know life is full of quirks and uncertainties and especially. A honeymoon in New Guinea is not most people's idea tonight."

" Bruce and dealers latest but BE TH LER. The book lost worlds adventures in the tropical rainforest published by Yale University press thank you so much for being with us that's been a pleasure thanks so much thanks for listening to WNYC on demand. Please check out the other programs at wnyc.org. Or on iTunes this is a free service made available by our listeners. Become a member of WNYC today."