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" Once the boogie man of modern music this week Elliott Carter takes center stage at Tanglewood and today on sound check we debate the place of contemporary music in the concert all. And then coming up later on the program Afro Peruvian music with a queens twist. I'm judge -- and to begin our show today if you plan on taking in a concert at the Tanglewood festival in Massachusetts this week don't expect breezy summertime pops there. Instead it's a five day festival celebrating this composer Elliott Carter. Who in turn is celebrating his 100 birthday later this year that to some that's a chance to celebrate one of them masters of modern music. Others will squirm in their seats wondering when the Brahms symphony will arrive. Types of Carter is an extreme example perhaps but it raises some questions are closer holes serving their audiences with the new and adventurous. You composers write music that they think their audiences will genuinely enjoy. We debate these and other questions today with another."

" the program today -- queen did he is a humorist and author who wrote a piece in the guardian newspaper that has stirred up a hornet's nest of controversy in the new music world it's called. Admit it you're is border because I am. And joining us on the phone from England is John Barry he is the artistic director of the English national opera. He wrote a response from the guardian today you -- To the two of -- gentleman."

" Welcome to the program. -- we also want to welcome our listeners because we're going to be asking to hear from you if you go to an orchestra concert do you enjoy hearing a new piece of music alongside the standard fare. Do you prefer to -- new music in a separate program can call us. That's 6468293985646829. 3985 or leave a comment on the sound -- page or website -- let me start with you write that after forty years and 1500. Concerts. New classical music is absolute torture you then go -- to -- all these very very different sorts of composers why pink with such a broad brush. Well."

" the pieces basically about the other music that triggered a concert hall or opera house. When I was speaking about what sort of the article originally was New York Philharmonic to go. Series these pieces by -- burial. And into the peaceful since Odeo which was written in 1968. And a couple of days later New York Times critic raved about it talked about what. What a fantastic performance it wasn't you know some modern masterpiece everything like that which it may well today but people were snoring. The high school kids who get drugs these things were ready to strangle the teachers. People were fanning themselves with with and I -- so many of these concerts I see this again and again and again. That the people will be polite they will be simple but after the pieces sulfur. It's not necessarily that they want to get on with problems they wanted to get that piece of what's."

" Her. John very artistic director of the EN though the English national opera I've seen people snoring through virtually every kind of music you can imagine what what's your response."

" What I think I think. And observation that it very specific point community -- been -- the concept so. Beethoven symphonies involved. And and that's all culprit marriage of Figaro -- people that's ultimately fruitful sleep I think it depends on the performance that depends what you -- It depends depends very much and how you created that he thing kind of necessary that he thinks it's directly respond to compose -- can be as much. I'm responsible. Density -- troops pulled itself."

" That's a really disingenuous argument that you know exactly what goes on in concert halls when people play two pieces of music that people are familiar with particularly. Dissident -- tonal music you can feel that's deafening. You can feel that they they -- applaud once or twice when the pieces over -- will not bring the people offer -- caucus they want -- done with it's if it's not always torture for -- It's boring it's a vegetable it's something that they have to would you war. And the whole idea -- you've seen other people's snoring I'm talking about real hard -- snore."

" Joe how are you under the guidance of 1500 confident I've interviewed. It'd been total. It's just the recent experiences."

" Well you know that in contemporary in if you go to say Avery Fisher now you'll probably -- piece by Debussy and you might hear something by Bartok or Beethoven. Are you won't hear any job you won't hear any opera music because of the unions are supposed. But -- usually hear of very short piece of contemporary music contemporary meaning something written in the past thirty or forty years. Aaron the and I think that the audiences. Have learned to just sort of they look at the program they see that it's only going to be eight minutes long twelve minutes long. It's a premiere it's a debut it was commissioned by the orchestra will never have to listen to with a gun and they're very very simple about these things. That they don't like it."

" But the I think Kabila that -- separate case and I think as a contemporary music that that I -- many types content could duplicate a total. And that music which can be difficult to get to graphical but doesn't he composed the sentiment -- you know just full. Americans as composed as Michael -- And -- that some brilliant young -- I think you'll come full copy this composes that individual voices. That attracted. Why -- very knowledge. Audiences certainly all performances that Nixon in China. By George that it -- play itself out performances. In London. I'm so very few people doing that what I did see. Was that the young -- practical again the very why -- get and what is that that usually come to deal and I think. I numbers that competitive that you like and don't forget what -- are actually very -- you people to deal perhaps an optical. In the world I'd look at. But music and Fayette it's about the the country music and this is coming together. And the movable. Theatrical. And music experience. I think maybe you fans sitting in concert cold more difficult -- since it's been actually in the --"

" Well US John Adams and Philip -- John Adams -- like listening to some of his music he basically it was is trying to create a kind of Walt yourselves brokered noted earlier -- at a batter I'd rather listen to Brookner sorry. Philip Klass the idea that you would put Philip Glass which you would call though classic great composer Phillip glass is a great composer what's that music. What's -- Leo's what's Stravinsky and you can't be serious you can't be serious seriously be talking it's."

" The opposite content pretty typical compose I don't think anybody. Google and securing a particular is that the metropolitan opera the -- problem. I would say the great majority that would give out an incredible theatrical experience. But it did not -- need the peace. -- in the music but the contempt for the subject. That may be that could connect with a -- didn't experience continues. Music is different for different people and I think. Some wonderful. Contemporary composers who is looking very useful pieces but the thing that I mentioned -- that it."

" Yeah we're we're hopeful that -- generated John -- with us on the line he's the artistic director of English national opera -- queen and with me here in the studio author of several books including of course queen and country and numerous others and this piece that has stirred up all the controversy. Admit it you're its board is I am. Let's do -- we can talk about. One specific composer or another. Fruit for the rest of the hour if you want to -- Joe let me ask you. John's point. That Nixon in China the opera by John Adams you look out the audience it's a different audience from the one that you might see. Avery Fisher hall -- on any given night does that make a difference I mean you know. It's it seems like maybe we're talking about two different groups of people."

" I think that's absolutely right I think that one of the ports and in my article was. The the audience that goes to go to Chicago Symphony the Philadelphia orchestra Cleveland orchestra is older. Older people are less likely to accept new ideas that are less interest to do new things that's sad. As I said John Adams. He's you know he's okay. I'd rather listen to Brookner. -- Philip Glass I mean from Philip Glass idea I own record -- 31 record by Philip Glass which is the most of the night which was they went back."

" They've agreed to it'd be great. David borrowing record in great David -- we record that you know -- that -- progressive. And it is a great record you listen to the Philip Glass version it is. It is David Foley and Brian you know going uptown and trying to be taken seriously no follow ranking those three guys he -- number -- David Bell he's number so. Philip Glass is number 3 sorry."

" I thought why don't we get out of that happening in the bottom line recent experiences you can have good music from a programming abilities and point to be the campaign is that the objectives in London. Admissible if you can compete he's been buying -- free trade and music and ultimately that's young album go all of these things composed. Is that the people -- on the David Lynch film lost highway. That is and that that interest composed who has been incredibly different. Around the world knows what on paper would have thought that music was easy for anyone yet we -- Does that. The average age of theologians must still be around about thirty years -- property fifty by -- Punch and Judy it's incredibly. Strong good vibrant -- quite contentious piece that was written. Fourteen years ago that games. Ford didn't say is I'm greedy younger than usual. -- opera or if it's nice experience that content -- music program and is if you create in the sense. If you choose that the pieces and the directives. Property. You have the time the community getting that you would get."

" And when you have to happen every week when you have there the name's David Lynch even tangentially associated with the theater piece that will -- as George Steinbrenner used to say some pennies in the seats. Here actually ultimately -- was on our program awhile ago and gave us this recording of of the peace that John -- talking about lost highway. And the you know listen to a little bit of it and see which Jamaica --"

" Okay. Okay."

" We're."

" I'll be right."

" The there is some music by all of the military at the Austrian composer and lost highway inspired by David Lynch's work and John varied artistic director of the English national opera. Telling us how performances of this piece played two sold out houses younger audiences. Joe queen in. I'm gonna guess this isn't changing your mind but what you know what do you make of that -- that there is -- perhaps an average age of thirty of the this is the audience classical music wants and needs."

" It's nice ambient music if you wasn't so be my dust -- the -- and -- was instruments was sensitive Goldberg variations mean. That peace is harsher because of the -- because in the kind of music you play and showed themselves every night but it's of a peace with that kind of music. I don't think I. I happen I actually enjoy ambient music I mean I mentioned Brian you know -- I think that that's a different kind of music than what Harrisonburg whistle is doing. What that any any of the composers whose works are being performed in major palaces like the Boston symphony. But where they're where they're basically trying to con you into listening to those things and I would rather listen to that didn't listen to the endless stream of university professors who write this -- academic music that you've heard a million times over again -- isn't about what I would like to hear my piece is about what I have been hearing in concert halls and I go to a lot of concerts and I want to make one other point. I. To go to concerts I don't get complimentary tickets like music critics like directors of national opera's Taipei on the consumer I'm responding to that music has the consumer."

" Benjamin -- won't -- They and their -- a competitor countries in. In America need to conclude that that is really quite difficult for so but I just being too when the -- that -- deterrence fail per. And we'll have Peter Grimes is -- metropolitan opera and you can have great great composed. But that's still has is that the world play his music is that -- into the contemporary difficult for the incident. -- win its first performances. Of the music in the forties and fifties -- prevented from people found it difficult I think. People -- Change people react in different ways. And composed does that the nine years. Accountable and board people's consciousness. I think times do change I agree which I hate to withdraw it. Academic composing there's no question. That is while it's -- I've had a little content -- picked -- it was simply pointless but that isn't to say about the -- that. That we can connect with what incentive does this say pollutants in the audience out there who want to do to contend that music is something. News."

" By Joe John makes really good point I mean he mentions Benjamin -- you mentioned Bartok and Stravinsky who during their lives. There were a lot of people saying about their music exactly what you're saying about you know the music that you feel you've been forced Fed over the course of 1500 concerts or whatever."

" You don't know people hate to do this people hate it when you ranks with composers like I used to know -- who tried to have a list of the ten dust and could never get shoe model once about -- I noticed -- of these things but but Stravinsky. Is a great composer. Britain is a great composer not on the level with Stravinsky Bartok and bear are amazing composers -- Now we're working our way down. Music that I hear when I go to -- Boston symphony to Chicago Symphony the Philadelphia orchestra I do like orchestral music we're not talking about great composers and I think part of the thing is that. Wouldn't wouldn't when we were young there were great great. Living composers that people talked about people talked about Samuel barber people talked about Benjamin Britten Leonard Bernstein wasn't great composer but people talked about his music who we talk about now. John -- that's about."

" Well but you know fifty years ago people were not talking about Bartok and such glowing terms while he was still yell. And alive a living struggling musician you know especially the end of his life here in New York when he could. Couldn't get himself arrested basically. Look what -- just pulled."

" Thanks to break appointment if you -- to all the great composers -- today I -- I would argue. That actually historically Benjamin -- Integrate completely. They -- over the budget. But actually. Composed the and it's called like big -- it's like how different it is much about how do we get that at this time -- weakness for the time. You know compelled to get paid people these -- isn't there encouragement. Can be very in and old the deal. And who all the great composers who have begin to imagine things in the UK -- and intense. Is the nature composed and his music and it translates into Chicago and into North America."

" Right but of course John mark and the president are emerging competitive but maybe. Twenty is that down the line and we'll be recognized as great --"

" And you know another -- let's let's hold them that the point for a minute here because I want to get some of our listeners involved we got to take a quick break and we'll go to phones our number is 6468293985. The subject. Of our sound check smackdown and it's been a fair amount of -- going on already in the in the past twenty minutes. Is the place of contemporary music. On the concert scene. A little bit of Stravinsky in the background. Jo green and -- vegetable analogy. Gabby in New York writes can't agree more with the force feeding spinach analogy. But spinach is good for you. So we'll see what some of our centric listeners have to say we'll continue with Joe queen -- and with John Barry from English national opera. In just a moment. And coming up a little later on sound check -- not grew up inside the most famous Afro Peruvian group parent may grow founded by his uncle. Now he joins us to talk about creating his own band inspired by that same tradition right here in New York. That band will play lives for the first time in public sort of here in our studio on Sanchez. -- This is sound check I'm John -- this is a little bit from the John Adams opera Nixon in China may have been written back in 91. But it's just another case of audiences seeking out the old and retired in the true. That according to our guests humorous critic and author Joe queen him. We're also joined on the line by Jon Barry the artistic director of the English national opera who has a very different take on this piece and on the place of contemporary music in the concert hall in general. And we have a number of sound -- listeners -- eager to share their thoughts with us as well at 646829. 3985. -- called John Adams. An atmosphere neo blues rock and -- right."

" And what's what's wrong with liking -- you know. And I'd -- listen -- they broke their -- if I have what secure brokers -- symphony last year in Philadelphia. I was sitting near the stage. It blows you out too broad street it's sheer power its candidates and it's an amazing piece of music because he just basically send I'm just going to let it rest."

" And I know lots of people who hate those partner symphonies and kindness and you you know what I'm going to say here that the big thing all that repetition. It's the same thing that people say about that you say about Philip Glass doesn't."

" Some incompetence and I don't read anything you can go to Tibet. It's true you this issue command has what six. Get it set people he paid for the tickets -- everybody -- dot com the tore them all that was paid for the tickets. Different world they have actually to what they can go to and to go to Java but it doesn't include Q I'm going into the -- and Beethoven Schubert."

" Could we get back to one point which is the point that I started my peace with which was Harrisonburg whistles mentor connect the minutes are or the markets or however it's pronounces about two and a half hour opera where a man walks around for two and a half hours with the bulls Havilland and says -- yeah."

" Yeah I don't let this -- is -- problem. And if I ain't that. Don't want to pay a 150 dollars to hear a -- go for two and a half hours about I don't know I don't know I don't know. I -- all right so many times I don't want to theory but."

" You don't have to you I mean I just asking -- question the last bullet by people is that the mindful. We're basically so that. Those people blithely say goes with a guy because they felt they -- too. Got a copy -- and certainly in the stole them. It's treated quite expensive -- that you can get cheap -- but people paid their money to go to that -- that it was basically so that it. But the two for so long why today."

" I think Ewing as people like to support. Artists. Well all right -- on that note let me get another voice in year may be a voice of reason from Scott in Riverdale hey Scott."

" I have everybody. I'm a big strategy are made in writing but I am I actually disagree with them a little bit I think it might or might be generational thing. So one thing I think for for people under forty. Even people who brought up an embarrassing classical music I think that Stravinsky and bombs are adjusted for going to the as John Adams is -- it's it's a jury acquitted. I think in general classical music and old classical music. It's extremely overrated and extremely lucky that it didn't have to contend with all the genius that came with rock jazz and blues from 1940 to 1980 for example. I think smokey Robinson and I think -- Jordan. I think I think our professor long hair Stevie Wonder I think all these people are are -- are more interesting artists. Then god Beethoven bombs and servants -- And I think that's I think very very few young people listen to the neo classical music -- and I think it's a dying I think I think it's going to continue to die."

" I'd like to hear what you have to say about Leonardo residency. Because anybody who can put down Beethoven's. That takes some boxing my. Last week last week and the."

" Under 4200 citizens -- government agency would ensue alpha."

" Long long is under forty last week long long played in Central Park you don't you're vulnerable on yeah many people -- LT here long long life I believe it was Tchaikovsky do you know how many people turned out. So those sorts of talk talk talk to me about long long my daughter's 35 she was at that concert."

" The -- not you're not suggesting that because a lot of people when it's therefore better than an event. Where fewer people -- you know that that's what's been suggested earlier about Harrisonburg whistle I don't --"

" But that's the truth is Canada -- major it is and -- about generations. I -- feminist generations. Do county and contemporary music. And failed play because they have to forget the day they play it because they feel it's fundamentally. Important. To what they do."

" But let me let me let me give it a quick response to what Scott began his call -- saying that it might be generational thing here's a comment from Joan. Here in New Yorker writes not all the people who appreciate new music for young I'm eighty. And go to concerts a lot mainly chamber music and I love to hear contemporary music. Bach and Beethoven are my favorites that I like to go to concerts that include or even feature. Twentieth and 21 century music so there not just that."

" who was one of the great pianist alive to tonight agreed to regularly plays -- hall and he plays contemporary music and my hat's off to a he's a great courageous man and he plays -- didn't he plays in front of 656. People when he goes upstairs to play and Carnegie Hall in front of 2700 people he just recorded all of Beethoven's five symphonies so -- on the overall Kmart does not think Beethoven is pouring."

" I neither does -- here she sang at one of one of her favorites but still likes to hear a new music is well. Let's let's bring another caller and chlorine here in Manhattan. Hey --"

" I've added I -- I think it'll tangled up. That the problem that I thought Joe was talking about is being force and stuff in the course of the concert that you don't want here's C ability -- government. And you get stuck with John Adams as well now there's nothing wrong with -- performances that John Adams Award ever. By themselves and somebody want to go here at bingo here's fine wonderful sport I object to it is visit. That fight pain and overpriced -- concert I've got to get one thirds stuff that I can't stand. I mean even for him look -- your pocket. In New York are always -- forced some forgotten baroque composers in addition who was forgotten for good reason. You know and it didn't want to listen to -- that's wonderful but it should be in its own free standing concert. I'm -- thing frankly was dreadful but if somebody wants to hear I think defamatory but the great country western and so on but -- you know if somebody wants the listen to that that's wonderful but he shouldn't be forced that. -- here's something good."

" I'd just Jon Barry as artistic director of English national opera you are in the position where you don't have to have. You know an opening overture and then a soloist you know featured in a concerto followed by the meat and potatoes of the program you just you do your thing but what."

" Absolutely we have probably on average nine performances -- the -- And decapitated that completely defeats. -- of the show. And so we have a lot of decent we don't have a subscription series simple. Actually -- we'll -- that buy tickets that is. And I don't intend to programming guide them program. He didn't I think the biggest sport in both companies. I didn't call for the program -- and it is pretty dead in pieces. Maybe I think the audience happened at all or do not look. Or -- he might get an experience. For imitating something that you and getting away with it until the bad news they configure it. As a result -- I don't think it's about programming what people well. And and nobody programs pieces. That usual the public doesn't know she's just tried to. You just try to present completely surprising. And original from time to time. -- people respond to it and so -- with a look at the program content -- music. It is. Three. -- against this happening next season we have a new hope. Use -- to build the doctor atomic and that people buy time out. So I a lot more to the land -- to programming to -- despise the patent composed and."

" And but you wouldn't program those on the same evening and let's say you know the John Adams was eight 1 hour opera you wouldn't program that on the same evening as -- the real -- economy that wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't make sense."

" It's what I I think program is that symphony orchestra -- you know I think that you have to think about audiences. And I do think sometimes. Contend it is is also the didn't and hopefully through programs. So I could not affect the other cool book culprit but yet again didn't. You've got to get composed -- a -- and how how well that the -- Going to be it. If this symphony orchestra it doesn't get them. And and doesn't give them an opportunity."

" What do you think his stuff I mean this guy was a Led Zeppelin fans still lives -- peaceful bottom. Not doing it for yeah."

" I think he was a victim I think it's terrific and it doesn't work I would say that. I think generally -- tremendous I'm fundamentally I'm not simply painted. Keep the speed that. I actually believe what he's saying you can't it -- for forty years that the political good. I'm being so negative about contemporary. Music. Continue to."

" From Philadelphia you have no idea that you -- the I have done that -- coach Joe -- and humorist author the book queen and country and of the recent article admitted here is -- as I am. Has been with me here in the studio John very from the English national opera with -- us on the line. Gentlemen a very entertaining smackdown this week thank you so much for being with us. Tonight you know. Still to come group -- Afro -- love new Caricom bay opens the chase Latino festival tomorrow night they'll perform live in our studio. And tomorrow on sound check Guns 'N Roses plans to put out a new song the September. On the video game rock band to we'll look at why the music industry is turning to video games as a way to reach wallet -- rock bands. That's tomorrow on sound check."

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