" Welcome to WNYC no matter where you war in the world you can count on WNYC is Award winning programming. Your contribution makes it possible and keeps our expansive web service alive and growing. Make your gift today right now by clicking the E pledge button and facts."

" WNYC on demand is supported by data -- managed hosting services providing application management hosting professional services security services and complaints solutions for mid market and fortune 1000 enterprises data -- dot com."

" You're listening to -- Leonard -- show on AMA twenty and 93 point nine WNYC."

" A reminder before we get going with -- Lincoln Chafee this is our spring fundraiser and I'd like to think about how much reliant WNYC for the news and information and then please make a contribution in an amount that. Fits your budget and if you call right now you'll be automatically entered to win. A trip to Tuscany courtesy of Bloomsbury auctions that you're automatically entered when you call 1888376 WNYC go to WNYC dot -- can make pledged. You don't have to -- and to but we sure hope that you will support WNYC. With a contribution it takes just a few minutes to show your support for all of these -- news information and music programs you've come to rely on. From WNYC so call now 1888376 WNYC ago to. Our website WNYC dot org and make an -- college. Senator Lincoln Chafee is here in 2002. He was the only Republican senator to vote against the going to war in Iraq and it was the first time he went against his party's positions either because. He's also pro choice not opposed to gay marriage and occasionally also thinks taxes are an appropriate option. He recounts his time in the Senate in the recent she spoke out against the Republican leadership in his new book. Against the tide how compliant congress empowered reckless president it's published by St. Martin's press. Very Cruceta brings Lincoln Chafee who is now serving as. A distinguished professor at Brown University back to the show today hello."

" Thank you very much please -- so why was congress as compliant as you claim and you -- And beginning it was a mystery and particularly with the big tax cut the one point six trillion dollar tax cut that the president and vice president whoever. Touting when they first came to office the spring of 2001 which of course before September 11 and the big big story can blend this one on September -- that's right. And put in perspective President Clinton vetoed a 400 billion dollar tax cut. In October of 2000 as to deepen irresponsible and jeopardizing their surpluses you're just months later. A debating a one point six trillion dollar tax cut. And so it's the conflicts or congress roll over for fat and you voted against it. Yes and Senator McCain is he on the of the Republican to vote against curiously now we -- make these tax cut permanent. But that's -- Democrats are able horrific event when it that was the big mystery to me including some Democrats Q what did you wonder why the Democrats -- yeah absolutely absolutely. And that kind of set the stage for what was to come later."

" In the first chapter you book you describe a meeting of moderate Republicans that took place every Wednesday over lunch. Where the moderates already feeling like an endangered species."

" Oh yes yes from years gone by when they would be maybe twenty moderates who would before lunch when I got there was five. Senator specter senator Snowe says Collins and Jeffords and I. And we did -- meet every Wednesday at lunch and talk about issues that we -- in common -- Dick Cheney actually visited your group in December 2000 why would he -- your group that he definitely wasn't a moderate Republicans. The senator specter would occasionally invite guests to join us and he invited. Arm vice president challenger because he hadn't been -- yet by the Supreme Court. Which happens that Tuesday night before he met -- and I thought when I heard the new state Supreme Court ruled 54. In favor of bush Cheney in December of 2000 he wouldn't keep his appointment with a -- next day but he was there. And the doors closed and all the staff of photographers and the media left and it's just the six of us. The vice president five moderate Republicans in the -- he spelled out an agenda for the new administration which was just hours old. It literally had me almost fallen off my chair and I think you -- a -- Enron on this program he should even be United here you bring in a very divisive agenda in the campaign governor bush to candidates it will have a humble foreign policy. You've just -- under very American foreign policy getting out of Kyoto getting kind of international criminal court like. And my fellow moderates didn't push back and say it's a 5050 senate you don't need to votes and we don't agree with the agenda that didn't happen. So two things really surprised -- number one the vice president. And a the gall to play this out not the president and then my film moderates weren't taking exception to this attend to right off the bat."

" Well Harry Reid was here not long ago and he's written a book in which he says that senators like specter. Give him the vote only when it's not needed but when on all the important votes they vote with the party. And I suspect that's because they are afraid of being seen as disloyal or afraid of losing the primaries where they -- much more vulnerable. Inspector has been under attack in various primaries yes."

" He won his last primary point 1% one percentage point. So only if fear I I had a primary in my election two six one then fairly -- So were you pleased that the Supreme Court had voted that way is a loyal Republican at the time analysts that the panelists Joseph supporter of governor bush and especially because he was saying in the United not a divider and answer for a year under President Clinton toxic atmosphere of fighting in partisanship and also cheered when Jim Blair asked him in the debate what kind of foreign policy when you have. And you we were sole superpower status you might say United States decent ones -- farm policy and I was cheering in -- and watching."

" So when Vice President Cheney said these things did you think I and usage was surprised but did you get the impression that. This was their intention all along in the interest simply be in presenting themselves differently or had the victory emboldened the Cheney."

" Part of the White House. I was on my guard certainly after hearing that as I was literally shaken up but -- say went back to my chief of staff since it was going to write a letter to. The vice president elect. We did that right away Rachel wrote a letter to right away saying I don't agree with what you just told us at this launch. But I was hoping that the president would take -- different view and when they had vice president gore presided over that the counting of electoral votes in the black caucus was shouting out. One senator object one -- to -- none of astute Democrat or Republican because we were hoping it would be different despite what I heard that lunch. Haven't you always challenged expectations what made you decide to become a blacksmith right after you studied classics and brown. I was working construction on during the summers as a laborer and enjoyed the work -- and paycheck -- on Friday. Companies like being a labor and was looking for it no way to get a trade -- bricklayer welder. One of the trades and it and grown up with a horse and team nor shall shall and I saw a school Washington school went to Latin and -- four -- with and on the harness racing tracks. And enjoyed it it for about seven years and still human -- But you come from might go back to someday -- cover really political family and I'm assuming that you were expected to join the family business. -- wouldn't -- than it might candle least hold prospective politicians make sure we have something to fall back on. The blacks getting it whatever it is a lawyer blacks that they had something to fall back con because if you wanna. Have the confidence to do what you think is right even if the voters might -- you -- So what made you decide to come back after seven years and into politics. And it's working on the harness track circuit in Calgary and Edmonton and interest ended up popped out there and no soul on the racetrack it did for seven. Years the winter so long out there in Alberta and I thought come -- maybe in on the New York tracks in the time Roosevelt was opened Yonkers. Now Foxboro outside of Boston once again thank you start to think. Maybe try something different -- a different job and then took -- ran for local office. Very very obscure local office as my first and -- one that and -- in the city councilman city became manner. And then into the US senate. How influential was your father on your political ideology. A very influential just growing up Pete and moderate governor there was a group of moderate Republican governors in the sixties mark Hatfield chuck Percy John Volpe certainly Nelson Rockefeller in New York there was a big bond of moderate Republican governors that I thought would direct the party. And that was my philosophy certainly. View fiscal conservatism care about the environment fear foreign entanglements use the tools of government help the less fortunate that that's. -- cornerstones of philosophy."

" My guess is senator Lincoln Chafee he's written a book called against the -- how compliant congress empowered a reckless precedent. Many of your views are rather liberal for today's Republican Party but. As you suggested they would have been considered perfectly fine in during when it was called the Eisenhower wing and then later the Rockefeller wing. Of the party so the current Republican Party is very different from the one that your father. Who was a member of."

" Absolutely and the big factor of course is the switch of the south. From conservative Democrats they're Americans have Democrats now to almost solidly Republican still very conservative. But in the 2004 elections which bush Cheney we're -- reelected to a five open seats in the south John Edwards is running for vice president Fritz Hollings of South Carolina was retiring. -- Zell Miller was still a Democrat retiring in Georgia Bob Graham of Florida was retiring John breaux of Louisiana. Five retiring Democrats in the south Republicans swept the mall. And that was the final. Change and that they control our agenda in the town in the Republican Party the southerners emblem most of those Democrats were very conservative yes yes remember those old conservative chairman of the committee's. And now they're all Republicans. Very significant what happened Mississippi -- last congressional election the last few days."

" Although this very conservative Democrat again but now maybe that's what it takes to win in Mississippi but it doesn't look like. It's more than just a slap on the wrist and one at the White House yeah so even this agenda is -- to backfire even in Mississippi the Republican agenda because they were trying to tie those candidates to Barack Obama. And to Nancy Pelosi can't sit in mark you're the only Republican senator to a proposed banning same sex marriage you. Her supporter of abortion rights. Did you ever consider switching parties that did -- we never targeted by the Republican party for voting against so many of these these strong as. That the that them. The kinds of things that the party has done so well -- well it did consider in this."

" Bring of 2001 certainly because the president gone back on his campaign promises to be United -- divide Germany's first act was an abortion Acton. -- on how you feel about abortion you can't argue that it's not divisive in this country. That was his first official act after taking an oath of office and then the humble foreign policy being so arrogant going back on those two promises may be considered. Money affiliation than Jeffords did leave the party and became an Independent and became an Independent caucus for the Democrats -- through the majority to the Democrats so that that act had occurred but it often times that of the parties there. Approaching candidates and Ben Nelson republic probably approach Ben Nelson in Nebraska. Or or John breaux for when he was in the Senate from Louisiana and talk about switching that goes on all the time. Effect Harry Reid claims that John McCain was seriously thinking of switching to the Democrats at one point he's denying it. Yes those conversations to occur on -- likely suspects. And John McCain certainly was a likely suspect in the spring of of one you -- I -- only to vote against the tax cuts of course he's gone back on that now mysteriously. Well he now history according to different part of the Republican Party going back on any number of things you think he's done it because it's the only way EC's for him to win or do you think he's had a change of power. I think the former teacher is still looking -- politically which is unfortunate from my perspective. And I'm also surprised that once walking up the nomination he hasn't attacked the middle more. He still kowtowing to the right wing base. Considering the fact that he was seriously considered as John Kerry's running mate in 2004 he's come a long way. You say September 11 changed the distribution of power within congress. Because now the fear became became a big factor and it it motivated people to vote in certain ways yes in. After the vote of September 11 was that to efforts are you left the parties for the Democrats were in control the Senate. Tom Daschle as majority leader and we in the vote on the Iraq war in October of 2002 Tom Daschle was the majority leader. But the Republicans cut back in the majority in that. November of 2002 beating Cleveland. The triple amputee next week when senator Cleveland from Georgia saying it really just said it was unpatriotic yes Jean carnahan so those were the fear elections 2002. In 2004. When red alerts and orange alerts seem to be happening whenever Republicans needed a boost welcome wanted cheeks which at that point he could've thrown in -- the it could throw the majority of the direction again know the margin was more than 11 oh whereas when Jeffords left. One person crossing I'll switch majority Republicans had enough seats after 2002. At least fifty to 481 person wouldn't have changed majority and that's most common question again why did she switch parties if you so. Vehemently disagreed with the agenda and that was important bills for wrote on the Republican controlled the White House pulled in strolled the Senate Republican controlled house has to look after my state that would have been retribution if I had left the party who wouldn't cut highway money wouldn't. Have done well on the military base realignment and closure bill mean that's just a fact of life. And that would also. Have hurt me politically if you switch parties and cost your state jobs and federal money. And that's a perfect 32 spot as we call them. But then we. Did go to the logical thing went to war in Afghanistan where you in support of -- Yes that'll be honest I had my doubts as the Twin Towers came down on a Tuesday I had my doubts about the the ability of this president vice president handled this dramatic act wisely and the truth -- landed -- the called the role for Afghanistan. This is -- I believe was Thursday September 11 with Tuesday we voted to give the present. Authorization to respond couple days later I voted no initially. And I just was concerned that this president went. Analysts said this dramatic act wisely I voted no but my staff with Clinton embassy chief in the alphabet of time they finished the roll call. My staff had come over and grab me by the health since that you can't vote against. Given the present authorization but it was originally and now. And there was only one member of congress to vote no on Afghanistan. -- is Barbara Lee African American from Oakland. At a 535 members of congress. Hundred senators for 35 Simpson house when one vote no on Afghanistan morally I almost didn't she pay a price for the she sure did. She was death threats and death capitol police protection so after that I know this if you can. I could've been me."

" Lincoln Chafee served in the United States senate as the Republican senator from Rhode Island from 1999 to 2007. These days she's working as a distinguished visiting fellow at Brown University he has written a book called against the tide how compliant congress empowered to reckless president published by. St. Martin's press in the Thomas Dunne books imprint and it we will continue our conversation. Get to Iraq and other things after we take little breaks in with us. We're back with -- Lincoln Chafee who's. Written vocal against the time -- by congress of power reckless president published by. St. Martin's press in the Thomas Dunne books imprint that it values -- that's it's titled I would expect from Democrat effective rather partisan Democrat so have you been told because some."

" when that somebody breaks it word that's important to me and when governor pushed the candidate is said earlier in the show was running as a unit and divider and then went back and right from the first minute the first day. And also the humble foreign policy that -- and regulate carbon dioxide and then later that Saddam Hussein had Weapons of Mass Destruction. He's there that you can't argue these provocations and that that weighs heavily on me -- our national leader -- would -- losing credibility around the world he wasn't the first president to compare Saddam Hussein to Hitler. Although at the time it sounded like to slightly bit of hyperbole to me what was happening in congress because there's a film filled -- used to film in which she has shown. A lot of people in congress repeating the same lines of mushroom cloud that he Saddam is Hitler smoking guns and Weapons of Mass Destruction senators that are and it's like everybody just signed. Well I've heard that that that line and everybody signed on but don't forget to a 23 of us that voted no in the US senate which is far too few. But it was similar to the tax cut we're in the beginning. As solicitor in the show President Clinton vetoed a 400 billion is too deep in October when we -- the tax cut in the beginning. So many senators were saying this is to pick one point -- and -- that we can't vote for this and one by one they were picked off and and brawny hand in and signed on and that's happened with the war Iraq -- in the beginning -- was Afghanistan when the president vice president talked about Saddam Hussein. People in the Senate was saying -- no there's no connection but one by one. These were brought into line either taken down the oval officer for right and Air Force One who knows what. And and broad line but -- twin threats as well by the way we can point out that for awhile that was a real feeling that the press which cheerleading the possibility of war. There was an era for the fear and anger and it's a bad combination that would link to Ireland a couple of the heroes though Robert C Byrd. Was in full cry Paul wellstone was up in a tight election just weeks later in Minnesota he voted no. He was willing to sing now in the -- faces voters. In Minnesota and explain why -- now. There was some heroes that you do say the conflict in Iraq is an old kind of war. But it means that. Well it's not. Being waged with submarines and battleships it's being waged in guerrilla activity. And the like the American revolution yes and suicide bombers picking off a couple of soldiers here ITT's pick up another couple soldiers there it's another war of attrition it so tragic you write that one opponent of the war noted that the Democrats -- worried that the war might be over too fast. They were afraid that this would be too much for victory for President Bush that was certainly a factor especially after so many of them that oppose the first President Bush's gulf war in the early nineties. And I know that was a factor in many Democrats thinking and a majority of Democrats voted to give the president the power to go to war. Hitler is Hillary Clinton's vote one of the reasons you've command support Barack Obama absolutely absolutely it's unconscionable that a woman. That is smart she is in good lawyer. Couldn't season the false premise of this war I mean I'm a legal basis if your life it just looking at it the evidence is presented. It wasn't compelling at all it unconscionable to me you've visited Iraq in 2003 and then back in 2004. -- did did you -- lot of changes that appear. Yes and particularly in the first visit we went to Afghanistan in 2003 and and into Baghdad. And what a difference. It from going in Afghanistan was the forgotten front there was just no doubt about it such a minor US presence of more NATO troops there in Kabul. And then into Baghdad where. Holy smokes -- troops everywhere this activity everywhere I'm thinking myself what happened to Afghanistan that first visit. And it was surprised in the first visit which was October of 2003 so about six months into the war. It was going better than I thought I mean we're able to travel fairly freely about -- went to Mosul and Baghdad. But a year later it was different we couldn't go visit the same neighborhood who visited. 2003 Olympic yearly in 2004 and expect assert the situation does this improve improve all that much recently it's a very dangerous place should be where you able to ask members be. Administration how they've gotten us into that -- Where you were not on the right committees -- on foreign relations committee and I'm one of them chapters in my book is about -- at the moment of fund mission accomplished when there was a euphoria surrounding our initial. It exercise of going into Baghdad so quickly and statues coming down we had a foreign relations committee hearing with Paul Wolfowitz undersecretary of defense in the Pentagon. And he was very honest estimate go to a fair question I said what we thrown a rock into the pool that is the Middle East. What are the ripples that are going to go out from the rock we thrown in. And he described in a very lucid and compelling way what we're going to do there and one of them was peace between Israelis and Palestinians as the first. Words out of his mouth -- the -- spirited duel victory tool victories at that this was going to be important part but removing the threat of Saddam Hussein that this was going to help with the peace process and that never happened I I feel that. Secretary Wolfowitz felt that it was important but I don't think the president vice president shares the importance and -- and I think he was. Undermined in in thinking that this was important."

" You include that testimony by Paul Wolfowitz in the book in its entirety. So is the president or the other president vice president completely to blame for the failures in Iraq and in the Israeli peace process."

" Absolutely it's they're more and they've missed opportunity after opportunity to to make it better certainly channel since checked shinseki testified we need more troops in the and they quickly retired and and then in the amber it's really peace process do it opportunities that the opportunities -- was elected with 60% of the vote by the Palestinian people. On a platform of peace and we did nothing to empower him. And then of course Hamas gets elected. No because we did not think missed opportunity after Yasser Arafat died and it's all rhetoric and no action and very very. -- were you surprised when John McCain who called for talking. Two Hamas at that time because they had won the election. Recently was critical Oprah Obama because he's talked about. Talking to the Iranians and does facility other people who -- now seen as enemies of America. It is to John McCain's that we knew was that John McCain has served with in the Senate that your friend yes and voted who have had great voting record on the environment consistently putting and strolling in the Arctic refuge. And as I said the only the Republicans need him to vote against him ritual one point six trillion dollar tax cut in the spring of 2001. And willing to meet with world leaders. In the democratically elected leaders no matter what their strike that we have had a feeling the strength of will strong country we can afford to do that and now different John McCain that's saying we have to make the tax cuts permanent. You know terms things in environmental -- environmental record. And and cast to castigating Senator Obama. For some of his comments about meaning. When democratically elected leaders. He talked about the environment you called one of your chapters the party of old king Cole CO AL do you have any idea why the Bush Administration -- on its election promise in 2000 to require all power plants to be. Clean air standards and I'm sure it's the coal industry as a big part of the base of the Republican if you talk about. The base account. Kowtowing to the -- obvious big part of why the present although he said it is again. The -- as a candidate governor pushed the candidates that. On include carbon dioxide as one of the of the fourth pollutants of the three being natural nitrous oxide sulfur dioxide and Mercury. He says a candidate we're going to have call Comdex that is the fourth -- but then went back on that. By march of his first term for our first year by march she'd reneged on that. Play -- big reason what was your reaction to some of the appointees and so divisive over the John Bolton being one and a number of people to the Supreme Court but also. Even people to other agency says some of whom have been held up for years now I would like to say today what I I know we have a lot of coal and sits on just. Be sure that in a lot of people work in the coal industry but I think it's important that we recognize that that pollutes and that the coal industry would be better served. By developing new technology to make it cleaner that other countries are going to develop it. Technology we should be doing it. And we could still burn coal and about and a fuel up now plants if we just burn it cleanly and until that technology I -- Hillary and Barack have posts something along those lines and -- in the case of Barack Obama he's from coal state Illinois yes he has no reason to dance. And it then -- to your question is in the present nominating these polarizing figures. Such as John Bolton it's almost he he relished the conflict I'm going to nominate John Bolton to be -- nations he said it was almost is serving up to the liberal trading your face endangering your finger in ninety the United not a divider was the opposite he he relished the conflict for you right that you wish someone would oppose President Bush in the Republican primary and you even consider doing it yourself. But wouldn't that have been political suicide for any Republican. To take on incumbent it does happen what we have John Paul now but Ted Kennedy took on Jimmy Carter it does happen I felt we should have a debate about where the Republican Party skilling and rather than just step back and have you stand on the sidelines and watch it change let me make a fighting case for with this Republican Party should be going on the other side you don't want to be a laughing stock you know to via a really really fringe candidate so that I had to -- those two things. After being a first termer going on to take -- incumbent president's first term senator bordered on frivolous but it did consider it. After the 2004 election President Bush -- I've earned political capital and I intend to spend it. So did you see him even more emboldened. Absolutely and I was up in 2006 when he said that he'd just been reelected and tenuous up in two years we call in cycle. Thank all my gosh here comes the agenda more right wing attendant didn't privatizing Social Security. John Bolton to the United Nations the Supreme Court fight over tentative Connors taxi. It just didn't stop. Then you had problems fundraising for the election 2006 despite the fact that you had very high approval ratings in your state yes it was very different from 2000. When they were my kind of Republican still around cared about the environment the fiscally conservative I like to say. Cared about nine -- involved in overseas quagmire is this is my kind republicanism. And personal liberties standing up for personal liberties it but they were gone in 2006. I couldn't race it was so difficult in 2006 those times the Republicans were saying I gave you 2000 but not this time. The -- but I'm sure some Democrats might have wanted to support you although I wonder about. Changes for its heavy sound so energized right now and you're talking very freely about things were you able took this freely at that time and Selena. Now when I was coming into politics as a Republican and heavily. Democratic state of Rhode Island. It was fun being partisan against the other party and that's what you're supposed to be -- a local politician councilman and then there. That's the way the system supposed to work but you're not supposed to take on your own party and that that was no fun so there was something liberating about being able to -- affiliate. Well there was pressure for you to leave the Republican Party in 2004 and and you got a phone call from then senate majority leader Mitch McConnell. And he convention Tuesday yes that's attorneys tell you that's true I was considering my options after watching bush Cheney win Ohio. In November -- four and being reelected. And a tenuous up and -- six -- of them be very difficult to run as a Republican but I also knew these big bills were coming up the highway bill in the base. Realignment and closure bill very very important Rhode Island billions of dollars in highway money distributed every six years -- really -- no win situation but nonetheless. I was evaluating my options and I got a phone call -- after the election from senator McConnell. And he said I know what you must be thinking. He was reading my mind and he says it will help you the highway bill we want -- Republican we like your voice in the caucus it's it's a different and we like that. And will get behind you in the re election and in any calls from any Democrat. Which it surprised at that through the Republicans had just gained even more seats and thought they wouldn't care about me I'd be marginalized. In the opposite effect on on thought to be popping champagne and celebrating the big new margin in the Senate now they reaching out to wayward. Republicans and Democrats were calling."

" Well there are comedians who -- talk about the Democrats having a real advantage because of the president's low approval ratings because of all sorts of other problems then they say. But the Democrats will regret way to screw it all -- will Rogers quote it'll belong to the biggest disorganized. The party and the democratic some bill Rogers is great quote him was that -- senses a member of the Republican front of people did because Republicans did generally seemed to be able to stay on on their themes 22 to say that things that were expected to whereas the Democrats were all over the place."

" Yes yes and that phone call from senator McConnell is a really good example how organized the Republican Party isn't thinking ahead. And and every seat is important and they were reaching out and they were very organized at that moment in time."

" My guess is Lincoln Chafee he's written a book called against the -- how compliant congress empowered to reckless precedent published by St. Martin's press as I said you had a high approval ratings you won your our our primary handily despite the fact that there was a challenge from the right. So why did you wind up losing the election to Sheldon whitehouse a man whose name seems. Really appropriate more for presidential candidacy then. Senator from Rhode --"

" Six seats six seats six seats it's all. My opponent said in the -- two way six seats we need six seats to get. The Democrats into the majority and check the bush agenda and I heard that. Every hour in the it's in the campaign we need six seats and we got them and you had promised fund -- he says yes so that's ahead of the primary primary owner. You left the Republican pro party that last summer would you state if you had been reelected. I had to make a commitment once I ran as a Republican to stay for at least a year probably -- he. The fund raisers that we're giving to me some of them were Republicans are saying we want to keep that majority and we'll give you and they never asked -- quid pro ball. But there's something more about running wanted to run he's got to make a certain commitment. So there was some in liberating in a way about Lucy okay the Democrats have taken over let's see what they can do to check this agenda. -- get to -- affiliate and reevaluate where. Where my political allegiance lies so are you saying that although Euro loss led to a change of the Democrat says it took over the the Senate -- respective might have been a positive things for -- in. I have not been happy about how the democratic majority has conducted themselves. -- in this new status when -- saw them voting to name the Iranian guards as terrorists but the same vote was 77. 23 or something the Iraq War full and giving President Bush and Vice President Cheney ticket to attack Iran. Is that what and scream when I read that the paper in the morning this is a democratic majority and can -- caving in on warrantless wiretapping and the like. They just haven't been strong unfortunately. Well I'm not exactly sure understand them. How the whole thing works it's been a lot of complained that we don't have moderate center anymore but it seems to me with the Democrats vote with the Republicans in a sense as they arm they have moved to the center of anything on those folks who right of center yes may be -- the definition center has to be defined as to the left and he -- to fight that what most Americans I think belief that is said earlier good fiscally conservative program we don't spend in what we do spend week we have to have the revenue to support it. And we don't get involved in these foreign entanglements we don't make a social issues priority and -- that -- whether that's left of the center I think that's where americus and certainly caring about clean air and clean water the help and using the tools -- government to help the less fortunate that the tenth when it's laughter center or right it's where americus. Are you enjoying your role as an academic or are you itching to reenter politics. That's a perfect position at the Watson institute for international studies in this and create new generation coming along that very open minded this new generation coming along -- don't have any preconceived notions and he about how things should be conducted they care about other countries other cultures the languages -- new generation come -- long since been very gratifying to. To witness that. It down in Providence and who knows what lies ahead politically."

" Well there has been talk of a run for governor of Rhode Island. Some resolute I don't know whether you could. Make a run for to regain your senate seat obviously the Republicans wouldn't be exit -- and the Democrat is already. In congress but if a seat opened up. Would you consider that again do you miss."

" I have the luxury of of just. Not having to. Think about that I I do it did enjoy the issues immensely. Particularly -- international issues were in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Another the governor present governor of Rhode Island is term limited so that comes up in 2010 Souza says the luxury to. That is not imminent. -- just one more thing have you come out officially for someone. In the -- present -- washed all the candidates many poor Mayan served with and when the rebound primary came I decided to support Senator Obama and the reason. Word that. He's had the best vision of the best message of very very important in -- the best run campaign he sent. No shakeups -- CEOs have had a net. In the hierarchy and is fund raising has been just phenomenal does that translates into an administration that organizational skill."

" I would if you cancel that Joe Lieberman who left the Democratic Party but votes with the democratic caucus but supporting John McCain yes people joke we should be in baseball like trade. Senator Lincoln Chafee is book against the tide how compliant congress empowered a reckless president. Is published by Thomas Dunne books which is an imprint of St. Martin's press. Thank you so much for being with us it's a pleasure populous and shall contribute to WNYC. Thanks for listening to WNYC on demand. Please check out the other programs at WNYC dot org and iTunes this is a free service made available by our listeners. Become a member of WNYC today"