40 Years Later (The Brian Lehrer Show: Friday, 04 April 2008)

[0:39] ..." is Michael Eric Dyson frequent guest Georgetown sociology professor. Author of a new book April 4 1968 Martin Luther King's death. And how it changed America from basic civic times books he also has an Op Ed in the LA times today about how Barack Obama and Jeremiah Wright. Represent king's own split mind about race and doctor -- welcome back to WNYC unfortunately on. One of the"...

[5:55] ..." of the people through distributing technology better I mean this argument about universal healthcare is really about. Re distributing wealth in this serious way this argument that the working class is being overtaxed while the rich"...

[6:39] ..." Lara WNYC with my guest Michael Eric Dyson Georgetown sociology professor his new book April 4 1968 Martin Luther King junior staff. And how it changed America. In your book you Lynn Martin Luther King's assassination"...

[8:55] ..." we can trust a black person to be the president of the United States. This is new territory -- the first very serious candidate Jesse Jackson was a serious -- he was the first black person who ran for the presidency who won primaries. Andy gets seven million volts and two in 1988 in three to have me in the in a foursome pointing at this Barack Obama phenomenon is remarkable it's authentic it's powerful. And it's an expression of a new thing that we expect going on here but what's interesting. Is that if we think Barack Obama through the prism of -- with the king -- projections about what was possible work week to allow. Freedom to ring in our imaginations to be unfettered by the big -- of race. Then Barack Obama represents that but at the same time the irony is that he's being tethered to -- the American imagination with his pastor"...

[10:56] ..." racial barriers -- proved tricky -- and the preakness such -- so Barack Obama as possible because Jesse Jackson existed. Jesse Jackson of the linebacker who had to brutally. -- engage in opening up a whole so that the graceful lines are running back Barack Obama could run through that -- make no mistake they're both related."...

[11:35] ..." being in a kind of conventional civil rights paradigm. That people like Barack Obama and Cory Booker may be are moving beyond."...

[12:21] ..." that was progressive there's no doubt. That a Cory Booker and a Barack Obama build upon that legacy and tradition. But in one sense it can't be fit to be original with them because there --"...

[16:12] ..." Butler thanks -- new book is calling before 1968 point with the king -- death and how it changed. America doesn't Dyson thanks so much much if"...

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[0:35]" On the fortieth anniversary of the assassination of Martin Luther King here is Michael Eric Dyson frequent guest Georgetown sociology professor. Author of a new book April 4 1968 Martin Luther King's death. And how it changed America from basic civic times books he also has an Op Ed in the LA times today about how Barack Obama and Jeremiah Wright. Represent king's own split mind about race and doctor -- welcome back to WNYC unfortunately on. One of the most tragic anniversaries in American history."

[1:08]" Thanks for having me in your absolutely right it is. One of the most tragic days with the blood of profit mixed with the ground and our a common life together yet. Sprouting from that has been some remarkable developments have some depressing --"

[1:22]" On your Op Ed piece piece first defend my do you think king had some Jeremiah Wright in them."

[1:27]" Track no the question is -- dear Byron at some king at yet doctor king world very prophetic person to would have been reviled and that's in one sense. Say it to be an anti American an American where people to hear what he's fitted YouTube was around -- doctor king lived. They've -- dismissed -- for agencies that. I AM not it was a the standing on the implementation of the reservation any longer I think that in American society we make -- treated like the Japanese who were put or in concentration camps during World War II but it hasn't had any longer he says I've been on that reservation too long. He says America's greatest purveyor of violence in the world to date. He said we are criminals in the war in Vietnam he said America began in generous the last sermon that he was going to preach when he was murdered in. His effects. Was found eighties no. Or at least an envelope would scratch on it the name of the service for the next week it was entitled why America -- go to -- that's the kind of Markovic that we don't know about and don't --"

[2:32]" That was the actual words like America Michael -- America. May go to hell is the name of the sermon was preached so a straight line from there to Jeremiah -- America."

[2:43]" Well that -- pretty straight -- is no question about it and you get that you can extract these. You know rhetorical flourishes of the purpose prophetic expressing those expressions of black churches. Out of their original conflict it'll keep the whole thing marketing junior preached differently when he spoke to mainstream what America than when he spoke to black America. He was more able to tell the truth wouldn't what was on his mind he could anticipate an implicit understanding. In the black church where he didn't have to break that down the same way. That he get a break it down and white church or whites setting and therefore he was able to communicate more immediately and more directly. His beliefs about America."

[3:20]" You run you about to Martin Luther King's as being. Pre and post 1965 and the second king was the more skeptical about America will change for him in 1965."

[3:33]" Well he's all that the civil rights bill in the voting rights act were basically not substantive enough to change the lifestyles. And the -- world and expectations of the poor. Doctor -- that this is circus that is not going to go down to the -- that would not be able to penetrate the lower depths of negro depredations. And so he's that -- got to move toward radical transformation of America he revolution of values and we got to figure out -- way to make real the promises of democracy for those who were besieged and vulnerable and as result of that. He shifted toward an economic program and he talked about the distribution of wealth. The matter radical redistribution of wealth and a massive redistribution economic prosperity. And so he began to challenged Dominic culture and capitalism talking about a democratic socialism he set up also that in public but that's what we need to do. And the reorganization of the logic of American economies he was very serious about that. And that made him much are more skeptical. Also he's that I need to conclude in 1967 the most Americans are unconscious or racist. This is a different king who was now chided -- By the realities that confronted him and the devastating structural persistence of the inequality that he thought would go away."

[4:51]" Why why right then though because that was the very moment. After the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and after the voting rights act of 1965 why wasn't he celebrating. At least for a period of time the willingness of America to change and then waiting to see how the new law -- changed things before indulging. That dark --"

[5:12]" Well it's because he turned out to be right -- personable he was right effectively. -- he he anticipated that it would not go deep and doctor king anticipated right where we are today. And skepticism have proved to be true there is a yawning abyss between to have guts and the have nots. The persistence of radical economic inequality for the black pork. Is unfortunately as accurate as -- imagined it. Because in a lot of people want to subscribe to all the delays the that I want to work well -- make them dependent on the likes. But they refused to look at what is but he -- know is that massive redistribution of wealth through not only get that government and out. But the accurate representation of the interests of the people through distributing technology better I mean this argument about universal healthcare is really about. Re distributing wealth in this serious way this argument that the working class is being overtaxed while the rich classes are being under text. This is all the manifestation -- skepticism about the changes that -- occurred is that look if you're middle class and upper declared you going to be great and you know what he's right. He also said though if you -- Middle class status if you were working pork in this country -- will suffer and he has turned out to be right. The reason he couldn't wait is because he believed that -- he knew we didn't have long live it's over yet it's deftly that the lord he had to ring the prophetic -- loud enough. For people to hear any continues to reverberate in our own their --"

[6:39]" Brian Lara WNYC with my guest Michael Eric Dyson Georgetown sociology professor his new book April 4 1968 Martin Luther King junior staff. And how it changed America. In your book you Lynn Martin Luther King's assassination to what you call a tradition of black death to -- that wording life is there such a thing."

[7:00]" Yep no doubt I think that well -- knowledgeable. To a tradition of black death from a dominant society where lynchings murders castration the slowing of blood -- thousand lynchings per year well into the twentieth century. Indicated that the black death. Was he staple of the American imagination the necessity for black -- of low was part and parcel of the self definition. Of American society for so long. Then there was the absorption and -- circulation of some of that self destructive stuff with -- black America itself so black on black homicide in crime is but a pale reflection. And a devastating went to be sure. -- a deeper more profoundly entrenched tradition. -- black bodies swinging on the in the ropes that strange -- about which Billy Holliday sang is a part of our own collective unconscious that continues to fuel our perceptions about black -- to black death and I think has been negative and very harmful effect upon how we perceive black people to this day."

[8:03]" York and Obama's support your public about that -- you on television with your wife doing the the James Carville Mary matalin thinkers if you're -- she's -- Clinton -- and -- in -- the fulfillment of king's -- And a pioneer into new territory where's that line."

[8:22]" Well you know Leahy you'd in one sense of fulfillment because the fact he's running for the presidency as a significant moments. To acknowledge the should. That this tremendous transformation that has occurred so there's no doubting that there is no gains thing met in Mark king -- would be the first to acknowledge -- as many of his apostles. Andrew Young Jesse Jackson John Lewis and the like would acknowledge. On the other hand he has pioneering new territory because he's striking out for the territory so to speak open. -- investments in black identity in Betty is that that we can trust a black person to be the president of the United States. This is new territory -- the first very serious candidate Jesse Jackson was a serious -- he was the first black person who ran for the presidency who won primaries. Andy gets seven million volts and two in 1988 in three to have me in the in a foursome pointing at this Barack Obama phenomenon is remarkable it's authentic it's powerful. And it's an expression of a new thing that we expect going on here but what's interesting. Is that if we think Barack Obama through the prism of -- with the king -- projections about what was possible work week to allow. Freedom to ring in our imaginations to be unfettered by the big -- of race. Then Barack Obama represents that but at the same time the irony is that he's being tethered to -- the American imagination with his pastor who represent the darker more skeptical more radical marketing jr. who is equally as interesting and powerful and necessary if real for humans to be achieved."

[9:55]" When you compare Obama through Jesse Jackson. I mean Bill Clinton South Carolina moment saying Jesse Jackson won there too. Was it so offensive precisely because it equated Jackson who sort of a professional civil rights leader. With -- Obama who is running with a more general portfolio of American issues."

[10:14]" little doubt about it but Jesse Jackson was running with the export prohibitions to but he was marginalize and generalized. Q when you quote when black people go to white movies that the universality they see themselves and that would and have you black -- and -- they steal read resonate with that. White Americans have not been -- to see universality and black particular. So Jesse Jackson was arguing in 1984 and in 88. For erect a progressive issues that would suit the country where and the tragedy is he was marginalize and get allies and the tragedy what Bill Clinton did was that he reinforced. That generalization and that narrow reading of Jesse Jackson. Ironically enough from a man who was himself Bill Clinton ostensibly committed to breaking down racial barriers -- proved tricky -- and the preakness such -- so Barack Obama as possible because Jesse Jackson existed. Jesse Jackson of the linebacker who had to brutally. -- engage in opening up a whole so that the graceful lines are running back Barack Obama could run through that -- make no mistake they're both related."

[11:15]" They commit something else he wrote on Jackson in your book I found this really interest in Jesse Jackson of course. Very relevant to the history of today because he was at king's side when he was killed. On Jackson you call him the most original thinker to emerge in civil rights circles but I think he has a reputation certainly going now. Of being in a kind of conventional civil rights paradigm. That people like Barack Obama and Cory Booker may be are moving beyond."

[11:44]" Yeah well look original figure in the sense that. -- king jr. called upon as a genius of American social rhetoric the resources of white liberalism to articulate back to white America what it needed to hear that was has changed. Jesse Jackson without the intellectual fortunately academic pedigree. Of -- Kean junior had to dig deep into the archives of black folk culture. Of American civic rhetoric -- of the virtue discourse it was critical to religious traditions. And you know you know -- those together to articulate a vision that would hold together not only black people but at least speak to the interest of broader constituency that was progressive there's no doubt. That a Cory Booker and a Barack Obama build upon that legacy and tradition. But in one sense it can't be fit to be original with them because there -- now. -- much more closely to an America. That resonates with white Americans don't know what's new about that that is even more deeply traditional that's more profoundly mainstream it maybe. Different then Jesse Jackson and Martin Luther King junior but it's much closer to the white American mainstream which is why it resonates with him so that's left original. Then -- project and certainly -- genuine --"

[12:58]" and I almost portraying. Doctor keying is a spinmeister and what you've been saying here you know that he said one thing to white audiences and other things to black audiences that he. Told white liberals what they what they needed to hear you know when we tend to see him as more of a moral universalist."

[13:20]" Yeah what is more universal than at the trickier question that he was spent might that he understood however in the negative sense of that term but in the province since it was a opportunism in the best sense of that work. He understood it would -- focus here look if if Jeremiah Wright is causing apart so what do you imagine -- of the king do you would've called. Had he spoken that way to the white mainstream or any group like because white people barely can hear the pain agony anger frustration. For the remarkable resistance of black people how how absurd is that. To kick black people out of the black church couple hundred years ago that's a lecture started to wipe Americans don't understand that the black church started in politics. Because the white church subordinated its theology to its politics. To kick black people out to you kick people out -- you want them to speak to what you want from the state even though you do have them. What you get them you give out of them you degrade and demoralized them and yet you expect them. To -- you'll in this speech that of course black people going to be upset. An angry and their church context although they are seriously American and -- got my point simply is that. That Martin Luther King junior understood what he needed to do to give a message that being the presidency believed it. It is -- but he understood that in certain context. He had to package and translate his troop in such a fashion that it would resonate in the particular weight so that the people whose ears were hearing those words to hear that."

[14:42]" That's less thing and and you have to run to the airport in your opinion. Would anything be different in America today if king had not been assassinated would there be more justice or quality or. Lower unwed birth rates or anything else that you decrying your book. About America today if this one man had left."

[15:02]" Not think that had -- that we would be celebrating him he would be marginalized he would be seen as a pariah which is what he was seen as when he was murdered. -- king jr. in 1968 most people forget on April 4 1968 was not an American hero. He was being dissed by the Washington Post New York Times he's being dissed by US news and world report time and Newsweek. He is being dissed by black leaders like Roy Wilkins and Whitney young four Hispano Vietnam they stripped him of his Nobel prize rhetorically. They denied his doctoral degree. The casts him as an anti American unpatriotic full who had no business meddling in public and -- policy."

[15:42]" So his death changed America more than his life all around."

[15:45]" The brother of the blood of the -- swept away. The file stench of his marginalization and resurrected him as a king and a prince of Amanda looked. Night January 15 nineteen when he that if we use these biblical terms in Christian viewpoint was christmas. April 4 1960 it is Easter resurrection death. Crucifixion and -- the possibility of new life that's what the paper for 1960 date is all about."

[16:12]" Butler thanks -- new book is calling before 1968 point with the king -- death and how it changed. America doesn't Dyson thanks so much much if yeah. Thanks for listening to WNYC on demand please check out our other program to WNYC dot org or on iTunes this free service has made possible by our listeners become a member of -- WNYC today"