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[0:36] ..." Thousands of new books for children and young adults have published each year but if you become best sellers and we wondered why that is almost"...
[4:21] ..." sales data across publishers format. -- really understand what kind of books work until. We really also truly believe and functioning with our customers are looking for what they wanted to in the past and"...
[13:25] ..." wanted them. And it was not that book was -- publishers of best seller I think it speaks for the fact that. You can't publish a best seller you publish a book and you you hope it takes but. There's there's many many. Many hope snatched by publishing into being"...
[15:03] ..." off if you want everything and hope and need everything to be best seller you're gonna be mighty disappointed."...
[16:26] ..." assume that it really he has had. And effect and pol kids book publishing says because it's gotten kids reading in a way that we. We're afraid they would read from her a long time I'm"...
[17:18] ..." before the New York Times that you the first two development children's best seller list. Wasn't important to comfortably kids who excels and a different categories and details -- confidently started -- a bestseller list that publishers weekly in 1988 and we had a lot of call for. Just that was really at that time I was talking about before of them booksellers really selling and large numbers children's books and the that the the magazine and it worked for has been calculating best seller list for decades so it was a natural extension the started children's list the times didn't start one. Until Harry Potter and"...
[18:18] ..." to him and are furious. Well how how much money did -- best seller it's produce summit -- better which is published like an adult book."...
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[0:36]" Thousands of new books for children and young adults have published each year but if you become best sellers and we wondered why that is almost all of them seem pretty attractive to me here to discuss the creation of bestselling books for kids are -- five well. Senior Vice President and publisher of -- well and friends and square fish. And Mike Hirsch men manager in the children's department at Borders Group incorporated. And Diane wrote back senior as the children's editor of publisher's weekly in a very pleased to welcome them all to the show hello. -- while you were at scholastic you publish some of the bestselling children's book series of all time the the babysitters club goose bumps and the first six books of the Harry Potter series how far into the process did you need to go before. EU knew that you had something big on your hands."
[1:30]" You know I I think that it is an evolving process I don't think you know necessarily from from the very beginning although there's something about the reading palms that excites you and engages you immediately. But you know in order for something big to happen I think so many things have to fall into place and part of it is a little bit magic."
[1:52]" And I assume that there was some really big surprise hits and others swear you're totally dead wrong the mutant it. You -- admits to mistakes just like you said I think this is going to really be big and and it bombed yet for I don't really see this thing doing well and it. -- obviously well absolutely so nobody really knows."
[2:12]" I don't think anybody really knows I think to confluence of events that have to do with timing that have to do on at the core. On which is a very good story and a great author that packaging the title. The marketing all of those things have to conspired to make something very successful what about the marketing value marketing to kids -- to the adults I think I'll for the kids I think all of the above I think when you're publishing for children there are gatekeepers -- involved in children's books so whether -- booksellers or librarians or teachers -- parents. But you know certainly from my point of view I'm a child centric publishers so I always am aiming for the child."
[2:53]" Mica do you have that have to make suggestions to publishers about a particular books content or. Format before committing to buying enough to stock in all your stores."
[3:06]" She mentioned there are lots of gatekeepers mainstream where all advocates for children in reading so by the time looks make it to us we're really -- tweak. We're really trying to use some of the -- street that knowledge about what's worked in the in the recent past and future trends to -- what. You want to two books they're great lists were really stand behind and make sure has about."
[3:28]" But you wouldn't saying we love the spirit but you have to change since."
[3:33]" Very rarely ever. We get picky about covers but that's usually subjective."
[3:38]" Well what factors do you consider when you're deciding which books borders will stop."
[3:43]" It's great question and there's a number of factors. Stocking -- kind of what makes the best -- it is a good initial distinction to make."
[3:51]" Well yet to decide how many going to buy it which is. A -- assuming this book is really going to do well and you want to have a lot neat story or maybe just want to have one or two."
[4:00]" Short we. You have a number of factors largely we rely on Carolina and every data expertise of my team so the buyers we have on our. In -- world class experts had to take in the -- thing you know it Republican -- assortment. And -- work will work we do leverage technology -- sales data across publishers format. -- really understand what kind of books work until. We really also truly believe and functioning with our customers are looking for what they wanted to in the past and trying to help them find things that we think they they're not aware of but it might like."
[4:36]" You're a national chain. So that I would assume that your customers and one part of the country might want something very different than in other parts of the."
[4:45]" That's very true album and we are proud of the fact that we Taylor are sort regionally. However we do sinister and the -- up behind regional -- you know. -- success into what what are what are really your customers what kids looking for. -- actually."
[5:03]" Dianne how has the children's book industry change in the past twenty years I'd say from the one of them biggest factors has in the explosive growth in the retailing sector where created I'd -- about twenty years ago. The -- primarily. Children's books for buttons by schools and libraries and that that has completely changed landscape has completely changed last twenty years. And -- him back in the mid eighties you had an explosive growth in the -- so there's only booksellers. And I'm which was a huge rise cross country which created a market for children's books in the retail market that hadn't existed before. And that was hand in hand with some of the bigger best sellers we saw in the eighties several of which -- that goosebumps series and babysitters club series. And I it's I would continue couldn't have done that without the booksellers. Helping out -- they're being. That Mark and market for them. Well and parents first notifying books for their kids today I think music by the books that they love when they were kids that's true then they have to get past that that's that's. That's where. Leave the boom really acres and when you get as good -- moon it's true and that is where an independent bookseller nothing against the chains because they move enough -- books. -- independent bookseller they've been instrumental in I'm putting books in the hands of parents who wouldn't know who would walk in and say I'm remember -- remember Curious George that's who let's again. I mean every new Morton gets a copy of goodnight moon but there's there's books beyond that and I think the the industry at large there's an awful lot more. Choice available these days."
[6:42]" My guess -- and wrote back senior children's editor publishers weekly. Gene -- five well who's a senior Vice President and publisher -- well and friends and also square fish. And Mike -- manager in the children's department of Borders Group incorporated we will continue our conversation oh win at taking a break I'm so happy we can just keep on going here well so so one when we got past the the classics I'm sure still jeans the fantasy is to come up with a goodnight moon because of that goes on forever that's going to sell. Year in year out but what but -- more and more books that have a kind of a topical silent when."
[7:26]" I think there's a currency two books that are that are published if you mean a topical -- meaning that they address the child who is you know -- sort of hurry child a contemporary the gossip girl them series. Yes because I think it there's a certain success to to those series of those books and and police have been. But though they're not necessarily enduring you don't necessarily have huge commercial success. And then have that last."
[7:59]" Some like how does that affect you -- gossip girl series which is very much of the moment. With the latest technology you're gonna buy it for a first printing but not assume that you're going to have restock at 34 times."
[8:12]" Not at all we assume that. Book selling of the democracy and it gossip girl self. Enormously well and people -- foreign you're -- country and we'll be buying it to your tree and failed on a classic. Slowdown in the people's interest in those books so. Our -- every single one of our team members called to make sure that we are watching this and we're really searching what are customers."
[8:36]" Do you have any worries that some of these books will be come dated quickly."
[8:41]" and now we're we're thrilled with every topic of the quickly and -- and because it's further reading. And if they -- into regional and."
[8:51]" Well who was the greatest gossip grow little -- in -- what's the a minimum number of books borders will purchase of specific title one that it really do line and you just what do you stories."
[9:03]" Absolutely effect directly to -- that book and the customers looking for an application will borrow one."
[9:08]" What location that was sent to all of you locations on another level has to be a key factor how important is placement in the knees success of the book how important is it to be up on the front table rather than back on the shelves."
[9:25]" Well I think you want representation you want you want the count whoever it is to take the book. Com and then merchandising MacBook is is critical. So if it's front of the store that of course is something you pay for you know you sort of pay as -- ago. -- front of the children's section or special display in the children's section so. I think that you know there's so much out there there's so much noise and static that any kind of special. Display you can yet is going to be meaningful."
[9:54]" So bigger publisher who then publisher they can afford to pay for -- prime placement is more likely. To have the success with the book and will -- an OS that same book but can't afford to put -- yeah."
[10:07]" I mean that being understood that the account has to want it. So with the publisher may want to pay for it but even so and Michael will say this you know you -- they may not necessarily want to."
[10:18]" And vice versa I'd also suggest there many times and publishers. Smaller and they don't have fun though and we want that book in the front of the sort we'll do it takes to make sure customers know that -- books replicating for."
[10:27]" How important is merchandising for kids book. Because they're there they're usually more visual."
[10:38]" I would suggest that it is important we do you understand that publishing turns -- a lot of books. And that customers parents especially initial conception regions. Stayed out. Re PW daily everyday. And understand what the biggest post books so what we really feel strongly about is making sure. There were advocates for them that our buyers -- perceived as assortment and they put on -- Kapler to a really visible so that the parents will understand this completely and."
[11:06]" I'm glad you mentioned the word Harry because I assume that the Harry Potter books and don't have to be given any prominence that's going to sell if you hide them. In the basement."
[11:17]" That's true it normal and untrue and another they will sell and they will not sell as well obviously. Front and center in front of people here and so on the country."
[11:27]" Also brings up an interest in -- when Harry Potter first came out. It was not the phenomenon that it became and it was not merchandise in front of -- it with it was a word of mouth kind of a block Flickr scholastic -- didn't have the kind of money that it leader. Got -- as a result of these success like scholastic was already merchandising some of its other books pretty heavily it wasn't like this -- any kind of huge trend that was just. This was that this is fantasy -- that the the company had a fair amount of hoped for but it wasn't like. That they did not push it in the same way that no I mean I think the expectation was -- initial first printing on Harry Potter was 30000 copies this because everybody it turned it down and hit it."
[12:06]" I mean scholastic had one day at a at an auction and but basically thought you know this is a fantasy by British writer unknown in this country and you know they were going to do the best they could. And really had a kind of cautious approach brought over Jo Rowling and had her meet booksellers and it was the beginning of the plan but it was at least three or four months before anything significant happen."
[12:28]" And so 30000 in the first printing what was the last month script and think it was over eleven -- gotten I think apnea. Well but they're there is the peer pressure factor in all of these things is in there I mean even perhaps more than union. Adult this sellers there isn't that -- of the next kid that name of the book and her kids six trying to explain why they weren't reading Harry Potter because everybody else was -- if you hit like that means there's an example right now of these some that's -- best selling book called. Diary the wimpy kids which -- sold something like 80900000 copies. And it is a it's got some comics it's a kind of a graphic novel form except it's mostly novel. But it's got a I'm very compelling -- anyone any boy he sees -- he -- on the cover -- Stanton I had one bookseller telling me. Without fail any kid who sees it brings it over the parent says I want that book -- name an open so I wanted them. And it was not that book was -- publishers of best seller I think it speaks for the fact that. You can't publish a best seller you publish a book and you you hope it takes but. There's there's many many. Many hope snatched by publishing into being so and I would also suggest that is it's it's on the cutting edge of a new trend. Graphic novels have been doing very well with adults in recent years and it's the same things happening with kids."
[13:52]" Yeah I think I'm more visual presentation of content also I mean I would bet you that if somebody brought that -- the reputed to meeting. There would be someone in the room -- who said well you don't want to call -- kid wimpy he you don't want to that's -- going to -- going to hurt someone's feelings you know and that's where sort of true genius really does shine through where this this guy hasn't been very good sense of what a child will read."
[14:15]" Mike how quickly to the books have to sell what point do you stop stocking a book even though you thought when you first looked at it. That it would do well."
[14:24]" It's really hard question and -- patent on the category at the highest level don't children's fiction and nonfiction it depends on the category deep category level. Depend on format hard -- equipment created expectations and it depends on what you hope for the poignant. So cute hoped he bought 1000 need to isolate themselves 7000 while still modest success -- that your expectations that perhaps the disappointment."
[14:51]" I do adult books run into a similar timeline yeah actually. A question. I mean I think that if as a role as a publisher you learn how to manage your expectations you're going to be a whole lot better off if you want everything and hope and need everything to be best seller you're gonna be mighty disappointed."
[15:09]" My guests are gene fide world senior Vice President and publisher of violent for instance where fish. Mike -- from the manager in the children's department Borders Group incorporated Diane Rebecca senior children's editor of publisher's weekly. But let's get back to. The other thing you can avoid which is Harry Potter why do you think it did take off the way that it did was it the marketing was it mostly work now."
[15:37]" You know I I think that the book is genius I think that this -- Australians looks well I think the timing of that was particular in that there was a lot of you know especially in the it on the adult side not a lot of originality or innovation in the publishing you know publishers had their authors on this production cycle writing a book a year and I think there's something absolutely fresh about Harry Potter and emotionally alive I mean Harry is not just a fantasy he's a character that. Has a lot of kids relating to him so. I just think. I think the story was unusual -- fantasy was about to happen and really there wasn't a whole lot of it out there for children refer you know for anybody that certainly for children it was a very it was not a vibrant category."
[16:25]" But I -- I assume that it really he has had. And effect and pol kids book publishing says because it's gotten kids reading in a way that we. We're afraid they would read from her a long time I'm -- on so many levels for us about just. Boys getting excited about books was what was it. Thrilled everyone in the publishing industry it is peer pressure. It and the and the peer pressure became have you read Harry Potter as opposed to what are you doing holding that -- cannot cool it was cool to be reading. Was also cool to be reading a thick book as as the books progress -- thicker and thicker. That was called fantasy was. You couldn't give that stuff away in a -- before analysts and kids are walking in the booksellers and glamorous and what else do you have a -- Harry Connor but does not -- coming for a year. Give me some more and the it's is it woke up. That the industry in so many different directions -- before the New York Times that you the first two development children's best seller list. Wasn't important to comfortably kids who excels and a different categories and details -- confidently started -- a bestseller list that publishers weekly in 1988 and we had a lot of call for. Just that was really at that time I was talking about before of them booksellers really selling and large numbers children's books and the that the the magazine and it worked for has been calculating best seller list for decades so it was a natural extension the started children's list the times didn't start one. Until Harry Potter and midway through Harry Potter I think. When there was a feeling that he was knocking off many many best sellers because. In the publishing industry you. You make more money there's there's there's. Clauses written and contracts that if you. Get on the bet the times that's Alice in Stanford's I'm certain number of weeks. There's bonuses in contracts so in a major major adult authors who are now being knocked off the list thanks to him and are furious. Well how how much money did -- best seller it's produce summit -- better which is published like an adult book."
[18:27]" But I would assume that and the other books that the that the large format picture books there's less profit because. They have lower price points and usually have to have. Full color reproductions on every page that --"
[18:45]" Yeah I think the cost of producing a picture book is obviously higher per unit but if and and you try to keep the price is low because I think there is price resistance. Over a certain point over 69 to five. Thumb and your your job is to try to sell more copies but I think you can make a bestseller out of the picture."
[19:08]" at the EU and I got the message from news that a global a good book will find its way no matter why do you really believe then I've seen it happen time and time again. I there certainly have been millions and creating buzz and all the other stuff you know I think kids by and large are immune to that kind of -- I remember. When Harry Potter came out and I was doing more interviews about. -- and they were saying Elizabeth just hype for the kids that kids don't care about hype you know. Kits are being marketed to their I mean yes they aren't shouldn't say that -- As far as those books land that was really word of mouth and and how it grew. So I'm I don't know about the -- marketing to kids in that respect police in the old days the important -- with schools and libraries as it. What portion they make up of cells today as opposed to chains like borders -- it it can depend on on the book really because. Traditionally the split was 80% the institutional market schools libraries and 20%. For bookstores and that you know what I heard anecdotally is it's more half and half but for more commercial books can be 3040%. Schools and libraries the bulk of it going to. Well -- in that case she had they had to appeal to a librarian. But in in the case of the books that we're talking about the books that you sell natural -- the appeal is really for the kids or for the parents -- buying the book for the kids."
[20:30]" I think the appeal process all the categories we recognize that the mom's probably their primary register now we sponsored two cents a year for educators and we know. Kids are going to be the -- into the books so. We really try to address at all levels -- openly from nineteen it and it's about. The reader so. The I think at like disagree -- that in fact that I think. We -- it kind of looks fabulous that are great books whether the brand -- or older that fade away and never you know previous Q consensus -- them to be part of that. Due to packaging part that's -- marketing and that's QQ you know mystical listen to wage its -- so fast. -- them think that we're actually out there trying to talk to all of those people this week we know -- time books."